to run or not to run

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » July 10th, 2009, 10:38 am

Hello all. I also posted this on the UK site.........

Hi everyone. I am an infrequent poster and thought this forum would be a great place to pose this question.

I am going on 53. Was a runner for 20 years until 2004 when I felt a "thunk" in my right knee while running easily. I had to stop and limp/walked home. A week later I tried again and the same thing happened.

I went to the orthopod and had x-rays and an MRI done. The doc found the usual amount of arthritis (average for my age) and a couple of menisci (sp?) tears which apparrently were minor as no surgery was recommended.

He was successful in dissuading me from "running too much." I never did figure out what running too much meant but at the time I was in marathon training mode. Dejected, I switched to indoor rowing and some cycling.

Now, after 5 years of this and NO running, I feel a bit burned out with the usual gambit and am wondering if starting to run moderately (3 times a week perhaps, 4 to 5 miles at a stretch) would jeaporadize the future health of my knee(s). I might add that I've been entirely asymptomatic (kneewise) since this incident 5 years in the past.

Any input would be appreciated.[/i]

PJM · Post by **PJM** » July 10th, 2009, 4:48 pm

I am going to give you my opinion as a trainer.If the doc told you not too much running..he most likely meant to take it easy and moderate.However as a runner it is probably not easy for you to just run lightly..it gets in the blood so to speak

especially if you were in marathon "mode".I would suggest trying an elliptical trainer with your other forms of aerobic conditioning.It has no impact on the joints and yet gives you a very good feel..like running.I use an elliptical and it offers me the same as running for heart rate and conditioning.I am a Retired RN and worked orthopedics for several years.Knee replacements, while they are common, are no fun and if you can save your joints..I would say that prevention is the best medicine.Find a way to work out at running capacity without the impact of the road on the joints.Just my opinion.

Pat

Ron · Post by **Ron** » July 26th, 2009, 9:19 am

I would tend to agree. No sense taking a chance. If something did happen and you hurt your knee badly then you would be laid up possibly permanently with no cardios at all. Listen to your body and your doctors. Be thankful you can use an elliptical or an erg. However, I know how you feel . The urge to jog is tempting....there is nothing really that can take the place of that feeling when you are jogging in overdrive in a scenic location. Listen to your body and your doctors. Resist the temptation. My humble opinion.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » July 26th, 2009, 3:26 pm

Runners normally have very strong knees, with cartilage that is 4 times the thickness and strength of the average person.

Even so, runner's knee is the most common injury among runners, and is caused by excessive ankle pronation, which pulls the kneecap out of it's properly aligned path.

The most common causes of the ankle pronation are (1) crowned roads and (2) bad shoes. Make sure you do not run on crowned roads that have cambered surfaces. The injury is most likely to occur in the foot closest to the highest part of the road, which causes the foot - and knee - to turn inward. Shoe problems include (a) soft running shoes that collapse to one side or the other, (b) flared heels, which interfere with proper alignment of the leg, (c) shoes that are too rigid, and (d) rigid orthotics. The problem with rigid shoes is that they cause the feet to be aligned with the road, causing abmormal twisting of the knees, instead of the feet and knees maintaining their natural alignment.

If you have a copy of "Lore of Running" by Tim Noakes, take a look at his section about Runner's Knee, in the chapter "Diagnosis and Treatment of Injuries."

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » July 26th, 2009, 3:30 pm

After the causes of crowned roads and bad shoes have been eliminated, the injury still takes time to heal, the same as it took time to develop.

Ice water compresses are excellent for helping to get rid of the inflammation and pain. It is best to ice all areas of the knee, front and back, for a minimum of 3 to 5 minutes at a time. After icing, continue to move the knee gradually and comfortably in different normal positions, avoiding any positions that cause pain. Avoid cycling, squats, and similar exercises that would put any strain on the knee while it's healing.

Hope that helps. All the best with your running.

Ron · Post by **Ron** » July 27th, 2009, 7:11 am

Nice explanation! Thanks.

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » August 4th, 2009, 3:40 pm

Thanks everyone for your comments. After careful deliberation, and for better or worse, I've decided to give running a re-try. What's different now is: only 2 - 3 times a week, only a few miles at most at a time, and.....barefoot. This encourages a different, kinder and gentler technique, it appears. So far so good.

Any thoughts?

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » August 4th, 2009, 6:22 pm

Barefoot is the best, by far, as long as you have a nice soft surface to run.

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » September 1st, 2009, 4:26 pm

Well here it is September and I'm up to 3-4 miles 3 times a week, all barefoot. So far so good - knock on wood. No knee issues at all so far. The big transition (still in-process) is thickening of the skin of the bottom of the foot and (more importantly) strengthening of connective tissue and muscles in the feet and ankles - stuff I know I rarely used before running in conventional shoes. I'm excited!

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » September 2nd, 2009, 2:38 pm

I gave up running years ago because of a knee injury. I still feel it but it usually is not much of an issue. It bothers me if I increase my millage on a bike too quickly or if something else is wrong (too much erg or too much computer work can lead to not moving my ribs enough and a subtle change in how I use my hip when walking) or . Usually a few swims or a Feldenkrais lesson does the trick.

This winter I ran again for a few months for the first time in over 20 years. I only ran stairs and uphill and I walked down and on the flats. It did not bother my knees at all. Fortunately I live where I can get an almost uninterrupted half hour steep uphill run (~9% ave). Takes a lot of time to walk down but I get to go out safely when it is dark and it is very intense and it doesn't hurt my knees at all.

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » September 8th, 2009, 11:53 am

Nosmo:

I think you and I "stumbled" upon the same thing in different ways. Uphill running requires a forefoot landing with less straightening of the knee, and reduces the forces on the knee - samething as barefoot.

Jim40 · Post by **Jim40** » September 30th, 2009, 12:08 pm

Have you read the book "Chi Running"? It's written by an ultra marathoner/tai chi practicioner who applies the basic concepts of tai chi to running.

I love running but quit after years of running because of multiple overuse injuries ... shin splints, plantar fasciitis, IT band issues/tendonitis, and hip flexor strains/tendonitis to name a few. Long story short, I read his book, applied his principles, and I've been running injury free for the past year.

It's an easy read, give it a shot. I think his websites is chirunning.com or something like that.

Good luck!

Yankeerunner · Post by **Yankeerunner** » September 30th, 2009, 12:46 pm

Hi guys,

Interesting discussion. I make my living selling running shoes, so if you wish to dismiss me as having a biased point of view I will understand. My intent though is really just to gather more information in order to to my job better.

A lot of buzz about Chi Running or barefoot running has been going on for quite a while and I truly believe that there are very few people who can do those things without trouble. At least if they are hoping to perform at the same level that they have been used to performing at. My experience in dealing with others has been that relatively flat and flexible feet have the best chance of running barefoot, but that those of us cursed to have inherited high and stiff arches from our parents are poor candidates.

The main question that I have is this: Are those of you who have turned to Chi running or barefoot running still running at the same speed as you did before?

If not, are you sure that it is the new way of running that has reduced injury and not the slowing of your paces and/or frequency of running?

If it is by backing off, but you have found that it takes barefoot running to help you to resist the urge to over train I certainly can't fault that. Slow running is better than no running, and knowing oneself and what it takes to get something done is good. But it is something that seems to be unaddressed. Most of the people who ask me whether I think that they should try it (and I'm usually inclined to say no) seem to think that it is a way forward to running even faster, not slower.

So anyway, your thoughts. Are shoe-guys like me about to become obsolete?

rlholtz · Post by **rlholtz** » October 14th, 2009, 5:12 pm

I'd say you should get into the barefoot running shoe market. I bought some vivo barefoot shoes to get me through our cold Minnesota winters. Doesn't feel as good as barefoot, but I'll put up with it.

Still running since my original post, though I took a week off after getting too exuberant on a golf course and straining my ankle a little. But still no knee pain!

It's still all an experiment with an unknown outcome.

And yes, I am running slower, partly on purpose to build up tissues in my ankles and feet. But I am getting faster with time.

bloomp · Post by **bloomp** » October 15th, 2009, 12:39 am

I've heard a fair bit about barefoot running, but my main qualm is this - stepping on sharp objects. Glass, metal, stones, branches, etc. That would hurt and where I live it's either rough trail running or road running with a high probability of finding bad things to step on (college town, college type litter). In fact getting on the C2 after a run the other day a shard of glass was lodged in my Nike free v3.0 (amazing shoes).

I think most people agree with the idea of barefoot running because they have not sampled the shoe market. I've had asics, adidas, puma, Nike, and new balance. Of those, the Nike shoes have served me faithfully, and I cannot find the adidas shoes I used for the 300+ miles that got me skinny. Adidas response 3 if anyone can hook me up. But to abandon cushioning, protection, speed and comfort? I cannot imagine doing such a thing. We use our feet so much, they need those benefits, especially with the impact of running.

My 2 cents. If you haven't tried them, get Lunartrainers or Nike free v3.0. I hate seeing idiots running in shox or some stupid crap. Or in ancient shoes. Or in tennis shoes.

Paul