I brought this up in another thread - I thought I'd bounce it over here to see if anyone else might volunteer some help.
I took the plunge and bought a Concept2, but unfortunately I'm experiencing almost immediate buyers remorse. The problem is not the machine, which is a beauty, but rather my knees.
I think the erg delivers an amazing workout, but it seems to be making my knees hurt. I guess I felt it coming on when I was using the erg in the gym, but I sort of ignored it.
Do you know what the deal is with rowing and knee pain? Does rowing just not work for some people, or is more style of workout and form? Hopefully this is a tendonitis issue that can go away with some rest, but I'm a tad worried that erg-ing might be trashing my knees.
I'm a 38 yo male, about 170lbs. An "intense" pace for me is about 2:00 / 500m, and SPM of around 30. I run the damper at 3. I suppose I could mellow out the pace a little, but that would kill a big part of the fun for me.
I don't think I'm overextending my knees on the end of the drive, but I do like to reach pretty far forward when starting the drive. My shins are definitely getting to vertical -- perhaps a little past vertical, but not my much.
I had thought that knee over-extension would be more of a concern than over-compression, but perhaps they are both a big concern? Should I just focus on an easier pace with a shorter recovery slide?
Thanks for reading all this, and advice would be greatly appreciated.
knee pain and erging
pjc,
Depending upon the type of injury, erging can be hard on the knees from the bending. I have knee issues (menicus tears) but I still erg and row on the water. Most of the time, the act of erging or rowing doesn't bother the knee. Afterward I have felt the stiffness and soreness. Just back off the intensity when you feel some pain or stiffness.
Try some lower ratings (spm) and develop some power. For someone your age and weight a 200watt power at 30spm seems a bit ligth especially if the damper is set so low on a new machine. But if your knees are hurting while rowing, then stop rowing until they feel better. Do something else.
Do you do squats? Go below the vertical? If yes, any problems?
If you're doing these right, in the long run they should help your knees. There was a video on You Tube from a site linked in the NYTimes on Line (free edition) a couple of weeks ago with 4 excercises for strengthening the knee. Squats, stationary lunges, leg balances and high steps with knee lifts. All to help strengthen and stabilize the knee. You may want to check it out.
Depending upon the type of injury, erging can be hard on the knees from the bending. I have knee issues (menicus tears) but I still erg and row on the water. Most of the time, the act of erging or rowing doesn't bother the knee. Afterward I have felt the stiffness and soreness. Just back off the intensity when you feel some pain or stiffness.
Try some lower ratings (spm) and develop some power. For someone your age and weight a 200watt power at 30spm seems a bit ligth especially if the damper is set so low on a new machine. But if your knees are hurting while rowing, then stop rowing until they feel better. Do something else.
Do you do squats? Go below the vertical? If yes, any problems?
If you're doing these right, in the long run they should help your knees. There was a video on You Tube from a site linked in the NYTimes on Line (free edition) a couple of weeks ago with 4 excercises for strengthening the knee. Squats, stationary lunges, leg balances and high steps with knee lifts. All to help strengthen and stabilize the knee. You may want to check it out.
M 64 76 kg
"Sit Down! Row Hard! Go Nowhere!"
"Sit Down! Row Hard! Go Nowhere!"
I've got flat feet, which lead me to overpronate when running. Because my foot was striking the ground in a bad position, it put shear forces on my knees that caused knee problems.
I find that rowing without orthotics causes me the same type of knee problems that running without orthotics did. Something to consider along with your choice of footwear.
I find that rowing without orthotics causes me the same type of knee problems that running without orthotics did. Something to consider along with your choice of footwear.
Sore Knees
If your rowing stroke is correct then you may wish to consider the following.
Reduce your stroke rate to 15 to 20 strokes per min.
Avoid locking your knees as is normally suggested but rather leave slightly bent at the end of the stroke. This will cause the muscle tissue to absorb the strain associated with the rapid deceleration which occurs at the end of the stroke, rather than the tendons/cartliges at the back of the knees. Also use the balls of your feet to push off rather than the flat of your foot.
Assuming you have no underlying issues with your knees you may need to consider strengthening your drivers and hamstrings by doing some leg extensions, calf raises and dead lifts in the gym.
I would also suggest a lower damper to 2. The trick is to set your PM3/4 to display watts per stroke and then increase the wattage per stroke while maintaing a 15 to 20 stroke rate. Start low at about 120 to 140 watts per stroke. As you get stronger and your knees adapt you can increase the power to whatever you are capable of. I know some surf boat rowers who will do 6 km at 18 spm and 240 watts per stroke. When your Knees are okay you can start to introduce interval training.
A lower stroke rate will ensure you receive maximun benifit through control. The reduced stroke rate will actually increase your work rate because there will be far less run on from the flywheel ie angluar velocity of the flywheel will be low at the start of each stroke meaning you have to apply a greater force to attain the higher wattage outputs.
Dont over reach at the completion of the recovery. You can hurt your back when you commence your next stroke. The forces exerted on your body are apparantly 6 times greater on a fixed indoor rower than when on the water. Technique and control are critical in avoiding injury.
Hope this helps
Mick
Reduce your stroke rate to 15 to 20 strokes per min.
Avoid locking your knees as is normally suggested but rather leave slightly bent at the end of the stroke. This will cause the muscle tissue to absorb the strain associated with the rapid deceleration which occurs at the end of the stroke, rather than the tendons/cartliges at the back of the knees. Also use the balls of your feet to push off rather than the flat of your foot.
Assuming you have no underlying issues with your knees you may need to consider strengthening your drivers and hamstrings by doing some leg extensions, calf raises and dead lifts in the gym.
I would also suggest a lower damper to 2. The trick is to set your PM3/4 to display watts per stroke and then increase the wattage per stroke while maintaing a 15 to 20 stroke rate. Start low at about 120 to 140 watts per stroke. As you get stronger and your knees adapt you can increase the power to whatever you are capable of. I know some surf boat rowers who will do 6 km at 18 spm and 240 watts per stroke. When your Knees are okay you can start to introduce interval training.
A lower stroke rate will ensure you receive maximun benifit through control. The reduced stroke rate will actually increase your work rate because there will be far less run on from the flywheel ie angluar velocity of the flywheel will be low at the start of each stroke meaning you have to apply a greater force to attain the higher wattage outputs.
Dont over reach at the completion of the recovery. You can hurt your back when you commence your next stroke. The forces exerted on your body are apparantly 6 times greater on a fixed indoor rower than when on the water. Technique and control are critical in avoiding injury.
Hope this helps
Mick
Mick Lohse
Adelaide S.A.
Adelaide S.A.
Sore Knees
Re the damper settings they are actually more important than you think. The damper setting will determine how much air is available to the flywheel - the more there is the harder it is to row. The lower damper settings will protect your elbows - you really dont want to get golfer's elbow - your tendons which attach to the ulna bone will absolutely cane everytime you lift something. If the damper is set too high ie 10 you are pulling far too hard, particularly on the catch. Its like pulling bricks every stroke - which is great when you start your session but injury causing as you get tired. Its better to have a lower damper setting because you control how much force you exert, especially during warm down when you are absolutely exhausted. You are better off going to the gym and doing some free weghts if you wish to increase strength in your arms and back over and above what you will achieve on the rower. When you start doing interval training your strength will increase markedly - but wait until your knees are better.
The drag factor is a coefficient of the damper setting and internal friction. See the article Understanding Drag Factor on the Concept 2 web site. Concept 2 actually recommend low damper settings. I would suggest you do some research on injuries associated with rowing generally and on ergos. This will give you a really good understanding on how to use the machine to its full advantage. You have a beautiful piece of equipment there dont injure yourself by going like a bull at a gate because then you will pack it away or sell it which would be a damn shame
Hope this helps
Crabs
The drag factor is a coefficient of the damper setting and internal friction. See the article Understanding Drag Factor on the Concept 2 web site. Concept 2 actually recommend low damper settings. I would suggest you do some research on injuries associated with rowing generally and on ergos. This will give you a really good understanding on how to use the machine to its full advantage. You have a beautiful piece of equipment there dont injure yourself by going like a bull at a gate because then you will pack it away or sell it which would be a damn shame
Hope this helps
Crabs
Mick Lohse
Adelaide S.A.
Adelaide S.A.
All I meant was that the drag factor is a more accurate measure of resistance than damper setting. Damper setting will control the drag factor, but if you want to get the same "feel" on two different machines you will want to set their dampers so that they each are reading the same drag factor. That is my understanding, feel free to correct me.
At any rate, do you know the drag factor that you like to use for the low SPM workout? Thanks.
At any rate, do you know the drag factor that you like to use for the low SPM workout? Thanks.
Sore Knees
Hi PJC
Re drag factors I personally have never checked - thats one function of the PM I havent really worried about.
I normally just keep the damper at about 2. I have access to a number of machines at my Surf Club so what I do is take a couple of strokes on the machine I am about to use and then adjust the damper so it feels right for me. The adjustment is only about + or - 0.5. I find this gives me more control over the force per stroke I wish to exert during training particularly when I am getting tired.
I use the above setting regardless of whether I am doing a low SPM cardio or very high intensity high SPM rate interval training.
Regards
Mick
Re drag factors I personally have never checked - thats one function of the PM I havent really worried about.
I normally just keep the damper at about 2. I have access to a number of machines at my Surf Club so what I do is take a couple of strokes on the machine I am about to use and then adjust the damper so it feels right for me. The adjustment is only about + or - 0.5. I find this gives me more control over the force per stroke I wish to exert during training particularly when I am getting tired.
I use the above setting regardless of whether I am doing a low SPM cardio or very high intensity high SPM rate interval training.
Regards
Mick
Mick Lohse
Adelaide S.A.
Adelaide S.A.
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Montanaandy
- 1k Poster
- Posts: 125
- Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 4:02 pm
Drag Factor
I normally shoot for a Drag Factor of between 115-120 on my machine and I do the same when I use ergs at the gym when traveling so I use the drag factor as a benchmark on whatever machine I am using.
I had a situation with the erg at home recently where I was pulling really lousy times but felt that I was working as hard as I normally do which was puzzling. The damper was set at "4" which is where it normally is and which provides a drag factor of 119 on my erg. After rowing a particularly lousy session I decided to check the drag factor and found it to be around 100 or 20 points below where I wanted it. I took a look at the side of the flywheel housing and found it completely coated with dust and hair (my wife had kicked then up when cleaning the basement). Wiped the gunk away and re-tested the erg and found the DF right where I wanted it at 119.
I had a situation with the erg at home recently where I was pulling really lousy times but felt that I was working as hard as I normally do which was puzzling. The damper was set at "4" which is where it normally is and which provides a drag factor of 119 on my erg. After rowing a particularly lousy session I decided to check the drag factor and found it to be around 100 or 20 points below where I wanted it. I took a look at the side of the flywheel housing and found it completely coated with dust and hair (my wife had kicked then up when cleaning the basement). Wiped the gunk away and re-tested the erg and found the DF right where I wanted it at 119.
Re: Sore Knees
I agree with PJC's comment that the damper setting is sort of meaningless. In fact, I would go one step further and leave out the "sort of." Sure, the drag factor is dependent on the damper setting, but not predictively dependent, since there are several other factors involved. The drag factor shown by the erg monitor should be an accurate value is the machine is functioning properly.Crabs wrote:Hi PJC
Re drag factors I personally have never checked - thats one function of the PM I havent really worried about.
I normally just keep the damper at about 2. I have access to a number of machines at my Surf Club so what I do is take a couple of strokes on the machine I am about to use and then adjust the damper so it feels right for me. The adjustment is only about + or - 0.5. I find this gives me more control over the force per stroke I wish to exert during training particularly when I am getting tired.
I use the above setting regardless of whether I am doing a low SPM cardio or very high intensity high SPM rate interval training.
Regards
Mick
If the machines at your club vary by only +/- 0.5, you are lucky to belong to a club that does a good job of maintaining their machines. I have my own erg and I just leave the damper set on 5.5 and when I checked the DF today it read 116. That sounds low, but it is a result of the low air pressure here at 4,000 ft, not a dirty cage. With the 5.5 setting, I find that the DF can range from about 112 to about 120, depending on the temperature in the room and the atmospheric pressure at the time.
Picking the damper setting by the feel of the stroke is probably the best way to do it if you are confident of your senses. For myself, that confidence is lacking, so I need the assurance of the monitor's DF reading.
Bob S.
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Montanaandy
- 1k Poster
- Posts: 125
- Joined: January 3rd, 2008, 4:02 pm
Damper/Drag
Interesting. I too am at roughly 4000 feet altitude (MT) but I have not noticed the drag factor fluxuating much if at all other than when the flywheel cage exterior is dirty although that is just an assumption. Temperature in our exercise room (basement) during the summer is pretty much around 78-80 degrees and around 50% -70% humidity depending on the weather that day. I will check the drag factor before sessions the next few times I row to see if there is much/any variation from day to day. Andy
Sore Knees
pjc just wondering if you tried the slower SPM workout coupled with keeping your knees slightly bent at the end of the stroke. If so if it stopped the knee pain.
Regarding the damper settings I tried a few different things today on the erg.
With the slower SPM (16-20 spm) the damper settings made a signifcant difference to the feel of the erg. I think this was caused by the speed of the flywheel reducing significantly between each stroke which meant I had to spin the wheel up from a low velocity with each stroke.
When I rowed at a higher SPM (35-40spm) I found the damper setting was less important to the feel. I put this down to the flywheel not slowing down as much during the recovery phase of the stroke which allowed me to maintain a higher watt rate with less effort.
More succinctly the slower spm workout is a more stop start affair while the higher spm workout is smoother - ie the boat has a better run at higher spm and therefore makes it is easier to maintain a speed with less effort.
The ergs I use are at sea level whereas I see some of you are at 1200 metres. I would suggest with the air density being less at 1200m the effects of the damper would be less significant. Would be interesting to follow up.
Good rowing
Mick
Regarding the damper settings I tried a few different things today on the erg.
With the slower SPM (16-20 spm) the damper settings made a signifcant difference to the feel of the erg. I think this was caused by the speed of the flywheel reducing significantly between each stroke which meant I had to spin the wheel up from a low velocity with each stroke.
When I rowed at a higher SPM (35-40spm) I found the damper setting was less important to the feel. I put this down to the flywheel not slowing down as much during the recovery phase of the stroke which allowed me to maintain a higher watt rate with less effort.
More succinctly the slower spm workout is a more stop start affair while the higher spm workout is smoother - ie the boat has a better run at higher spm and therefore makes it is easier to maintain a speed with less effort.
The ergs I use are at sea level whereas I see some of you are at 1200 metres. I would suggest with the air density being less at 1200m the effects of the damper would be less significant. Would be interesting to follow up.
Good rowing
Mick
Hi Mick
I did try some slow SPM workouts. I found it similar to what you described -- the flywheel slows down, so each pull is harder. My heart rate can get fairly high with this workout, even though I'm not pulling very good times. This is fine with me as building aerobic capacity is what I mainly care about. I think it's a good workout to have in the rotation - it's fun to do and lets you focus on form.
My knees are feeling better, but it's hard to say whether it's from the low SPM workouts or just from cross-training more (and erg-ing less.). The erg is my favorite workout and I'd love to do it 5-6X per week like some folks here, but 2X per week each on running, swimming, erg-ing seems to be what works for me.
Thanks for the advice
Pete
I did try some slow SPM workouts. I found it similar to what you described -- the flywheel slows down, so each pull is harder. My heart rate can get fairly high with this workout, even though I'm not pulling very good times. This is fine with me as building aerobic capacity is what I mainly care about. I think it's a good workout to have in the rotation - it's fun to do and lets you focus on form.
My knees are feeling better, but it's hard to say whether it's from the low SPM workouts or just from cross-training more (and erg-ing less.). The erg is my favorite workout and I'd love to do it 5-6X per week like some folks here, but 2X per week each on running, swimming, erg-ing seems to be what works for me.
Thanks for the advice
Pete
Knee Pain
Hi Pete
Really pleased to hear the pain has subsided.
Regarding your times these will improve as you get more familiar with the low SPM type of workout. Once you can pulling an average of 200 Watts per stroke you will be doing sub 4 min per 1000m which is pretty respectable during training. I found the best way to build up to this level was to do 5000m workouts while maintaining an average watt rate in a given range of 10 watts per stroke. ie between 150 to 160 watts per stroke for the full 5000m. Then the following week increase the average into the next 10 watt range ie 160 to 170. Before you know it you will be sub 4 minutes per 1000. This type of workout will really increase your strength. When your knees are really good you can do some really high intensity interval training with stroke rates of 45+. You will be staggered by your times.
Regarding the cardio aspect of the low SPM workout it is quite staggering. I am able reach 160 - 170bpm within the first 1500m and then maintain this for the full workout (20-40 mins). On the spin bike it takes me an hour to get my heart rate to this level. At my age (48) the cardio aspect of the slow SPM is most benificial.
Sounds as though you have found an answer with your cross training.
Good Luck
Mick
Really pleased to hear the pain has subsided.
Regarding your times these will improve as you get more familiar with the low SPM type of workout. Once you can pulling an average of 200 Watts per stroke you will be doing sub 4 min per 1000m which is pretty respectable during training. I found the best way to build up to this level was to do 5000m workouts while maintaining an average watt rate in a given range of 10 watts per stroke. ie between 150 to 160 watts per stroke for the full 5000m. Then the following week increase the average into the next 10 watt range ie 160 to 170. Before you know it you will be sub 4 minutes per 1000. This type of workout will really increase your strength. When your knees are really good you can do some really high intensity interval training with stroke rates of 45+. You will be staggered by your times.
Regarding the cardio aspect of the low SPM workout it is quite staggering. I am able reach 160 - 170bpm within the first 1500m and then maintain this for the full workout (20-40 mins). On the spin bike it takes me an hour to get my heart rate to this level. At my age (48) the cardio aspect of the slow SPM is most benificial.
Sounds as though you have found an answer with your cross training.
Good Luck
Mick
Mick Lohse
Adelaide S.A.
Adelaide S.A.
Re: knee pain and erging
I have a similar issue in that I have knee problems as well that prohibit impacted. But I also can't ride a recumbent exercise bike for more than an hour or so or drive a manual (clutch) car do the constant bending.
I'm looking to upgrade and trying to figure out if a D/E or Dynamic would be any easier on my knees. My only concern is I still want the best workout possible. In other words if one works less muscles or doesn't provide as good of a workout but is slightly harder on the knees I would still prefer it.
So D/E or Dynamic
Which is better exercise?
Which uses more muscles?
Which is better for knees?
Thank you.
I'm looking to upgrade and trying to figure out if a D/E or Dynamic would be any easier on my knees. My only concern is I still want the best workout possible. In other words if one works less muscles or doesn't provide as good of a workout but is slightly harder on the knees I would still prefer it.
So D/E or Dynamic
Which is better exercise?
Which uses more muscles?
Which is better for knees?
Thank you.