New Wolverine Plan Thread

[excellence]

Hi Patrick! I actually didn't know I was added to your post until I looked today, so thank you for the advice and comments. I hope you or someone can clarify.
To all who gave such good information last week in my quest to conquer the low spm’s for the WP level 4, THANK YOU. I would like to say that today I had my “aha” moment. It was actually quite accidental. After having surgery last Tuesday I wasn’t suppose to be working out at all, but I was going nuts, so I figured “I’ll just work my legs on the spinning bike and treadmill – at my own pace, because I will not make it 1 month with nothing. Yesterday, I behaved. I was looking at the erg and it’s killing me.
Today I’m power walking on the treadmill and I couldn’t take it anymore! Yes, I went there. Now I’m not crazy. I’m giving this some serious thought, as to the ramifications (if I screw myself up). My plan: I’ll just work the legs – no good. Then I just pull slow and try not to put any pressure on my upper body? Honestly, I was nervous, cause one wrong move and I may have been on the floor. So I concentrate on pulling very deliberately, with no goal in mind (just not to hurt myself).
Point is, I GOT IT. Someone here mentioned stopping the flywheel, and that’s what I got to happen. I hit my 16’s and 18’s and got that wheel to stop at thee catch. It was amazing! Like when you learn to ride a bike and then one day you’re not wobbling around so much – you’re just doing it. Did 5k, and stayed 16-18. In fact, from about 2775k – 5k it was 16-17. I’d lose my bearings when I got excited, and I was definitely excited.
Played with splits around 2:30 to 2:45. For today all I wanted to do was not hurt myself, and keep the spms going.
After the 5k, I did a 2k holding 18. Was getting fatigued, but was souped and didn’t want to lose the mojo.
So, I do have a question. I believe it was Mike C. who said (in his remarks to WP) that people often cheat by stopping the stroke at the catch or the finish. I didn’t stop ( remembered his note), but can someone explain the mechanics of this? I kind of get it, but I sure as hell don’t want to go in tomorrow and have a disconnect because I can’t mentally make the connection. Today I was being very cautious and deliberate. Not trying to overthink this, just understand. Hope someone gets what I’m saying. If not I’ll try to be a bit clearer. Thanx.

[pmacaula]

Did 5k, and stayed 16-18...
a question...people often cheat by stopping the stroke at the catch or the finish. I didn’t stop...

Ex - Not 100% sure I get your concern, but the basic point is that you should always be moving the handle continuously, regardless of rate.

At low rates, the recovery gets a lot slower & the recovery:drive ratio goes up significantly (as high as 4:1), but from the finish through the catch, the handle should always be moving, even if slowly.

On the water, some crews will pause during some part of the recovery to work on balance & synchronization, but this is essentially irrelevant in erging.

The easiest spots to stop are when the handle changes direction - the catch and the finish. Erging with a pause at ANY rate encourages bad technique that you want to avoid & is not sustainable at higher rates anyhow.

So, by not pausing, your technique is consistent with what you do at a higher rate. The discipline of 'slide control' at low rates should help you at higher rates, but only if you are doing essentially the same thing, only slower.

Cheers. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

On the water, some crews will pause during some part of the recovery to work on balance & synchronization, but this is essentially irrelevant in erging.

It can be worth while to do pause drills on the erg to get the sequence of arms back and legs on the recovery correct. It can really help to pause with the arms out, body angle set and knees down. Then the body angle should not change until partially in to the drive. This can help with lunging at the catch, and let one focus on a slow recovery slide. I often do this during warm up. It should not be done during L4's. One can also pause with arms away before the body swings which can help if you focus on fast hands away but I don't do this very much.

edit: I think is almost always a bad idea to pause at the end of the drive.

[excellence]

Hi Patrick;

Work has kept me away from following up the past few day, but thanks, as always, for the response. Seems I was a bit vague on what I was asking. I think was going thru the movements and trying to analyze each part of my stroke to see where I was coming up short. I seemed to be ok on the catch, and that day the rest seemed to be working, but I was paddling.
So, next day, when I went back to L4 - different bird. Doing 2-3’ clips got a little tricky again. Better than before, but I think this is where my questions were coming from.While I was not stopping at the catch or the finish, recovery was off. I just have to keep at it.
Point taken Nosmo. My numbers aren’t fluctuating greatly - 16 is still more 17, and 18 is keeping it steady (jumps to 20) on drive. So looking for that balance. Did 2 60’ the next day also. Bad idea, but I was so miffed because the 1st one didn’t go as I wanted. So back to the drawing board..

[miep]

Hi all,

I have a simple question: what refpace do I use when doing WP workouts on the water? I know my refpace on the erg (I go with 1:50), but I'm sure I can't pull that in my single.

I row on a river, there is no 2K marked course. So it's hard to actually measure doing a 2K.

The rowing biomechanics newsletter (2007, http://www.biorow.com/RBN_en_2007_files ... News07.pdf) has a way of translating erg scores to water times in a single; I'm a little over 80Kg, so with my erg time, that would put me at an 8:12-8:15 2K in a single.

Is that a safe assumption? Do you want to share your actual differences between erg and OTW times?

[Waltera]

As a new goal when turning 50 this year I've recently started with the WP. I think I understand most of it and I have read most of the new and old threads. I do have one question. Because I hadn't been training a lot in past years (I did row my meters but more as an exercise and weightcontrol) my 2K avg dropped from 1:53 to 1:48 in a few weeks (I'm aiming to go back sub 7:00 before november). Do I continue to use the reference pace of 1:53 for L4's the rest of the season or do I adjust it?

Walter

[Snail Space]

Do I continue to use the reference pace of 1:53 for L4's the rest of the season or do I adjust it?

The WP was originally intended for established college athletes in a regular rowing program. Their ref paces were the previous season's 2K PB which I assume would have been done late in that season. If you are returning to exercise after a long lay-off your 2K times are likely to improve disproportionately quickly for a short time, and thereafter the rate of progress will be slower. If you are still in the rapid improvement phase, I would have thought that it was worth adjusting your reference pace, although I would be wary about continuing to adjust as you progress. Mike Caviston has given specific advice about this, but I can't remember the link.

Cheers,
Dave.

[Waltera]

Thx Dave,

Sounds good advise, I will adjust my ref pace once or maybe twice and then continue with it untill the end off the season.


Walter

[konarzewski]

Do I continue to use the reference pace of 1:53 for L4's the rest of the season or do I adjust it?

Walter

Fundamentally I agree with David. My understanding of the WP is that there should be steady sustainable progress throughout the season. When I started on the WP a few months ago I deliberately chose a slowish 2K reference pace and I found that very helpful as I was able to hit my targets without getting exhausted or discouraged. As my times have slowly improved, I've kept the same 2K ref pace, but aimed at making each workout just a little bit faster, improving my pace steadily by 0.1 or even just 0.05 seconds a week. It's important to be able to approach each workout fresh and full of enthusiasm so that it's fun and enjoyable. If you find you're not looking forward to workouts or that you're pushing yourself too hard to meet your targets, you should slow down your 2K ref pace by a second or so.

[pmacaula]

Having followed a 6 day/wk WP program pretty much to the letter of MC's guidance for about six months (Sept '08 to March '09), I all but set it aside to focus on re-acquainting myself with OTW; specifically sculling in a 1x. Had a great time on the water & plan to continue with it.

The OTW season is over in my neck of the woods (docks out, etc). Am getting back into 6 day/wk erging & specifically the WP. Did 60' L4s on Saturday & Sunday & have a pretty good idea where I stand relative to March and my ref. pace from then.

Was not good enough last spring to just move the OTE workouts onto the water. Too many other things to learn - technique, steering, handling water conditions, not having a StrokeCoach, ...
Kept up a regular diet of erging, but was so drained from OTW (even if slow, it was hard work), I could only do a fraction of my WP OTE sessions & very little of the L1/L2 stuff. With a season of learning to scull & a bit of head racing under my belt, hope to change that.

Would like to be able to use the WP year round and set things up so that the transition to OTW is 'seamless'. The ideal being to take a prescribed workout & do it either OTW or OTE.
Think I have step one sorted - understanding my OTE/OTW pace relationship. Objective is to close that.

Does anyone have direct personal experience doing WP L4 sessions on the water in the kind of volume/distance that one would do on the erg ?
I am thinking of two 60min sessions and one L4 Interval session each week.
Any comments/observations/pointers on how best to make it work ?

Thanks. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

Hi Patrick,
Good to see this thread going again. (I have a question and was going to do post it here anyway-- see below)

Generally I've mainly just tried to hit the stroke rating L4 targets on OTW and adjust the pace depending on conditions. If I rowed somewhere that I could do long straight runs then I would worry about pace but I have too much variation due to wind and turns to get consistent pace readings, so I just try my best and adjust depending on how it feels.

In terms of time, it takes so much longer to do OTW workouts--just getting to the boat house getting the boat in and out of the water and washing the boat, that how much time I spend depend more on how much I have. But generally I try to do the same thing OTW as OTE. So If I have 60' L4 scheduled I would do that OTW or OTE.

I also have done the same for other workouts. 4x2000 definitely feels different and takes much longer in a 1x then on the erg but I figure the variation is good for me. It is much simpler to do everything the same

Now for my question--was there a reason the L3 intervals were choosen to be 3' on 1' off? I understand the 3:1 ratio, but is there any reason not to do 2'on 40" off? Probably I missed what MC said about it. Thought I would experiment with more different types of workouts this winter just to see what it is like---The winter really is my off season and I won't be pushing it very much.

[pmacaula]

...hit the stroke rating L4 targets on OTW and adjust the pace depending on conditions...have done the same for other workouts. 4x2000 definitely feels different and takes much longer in a 1x then on the erg but I figure the variation is good for me. It is much simpler to do everything the same

Nosmo - thanks. Glad to know it is just a matter of being flexible about conditions, etc.
As you say, the real trick is getting enough of a body of water to do without too many interruptions/distractions.

...was there a reason the L3 intervals were chosen to be 3' on 1' off? ...is there any reason not to do 2' on 40" off?

I don't recall seeing anything magic about 3/1' other than it can be programmed on a PM2/3/4 and is easy to keep track of in your head. The fractions of a minute might get a bit tricky unless the PMx has it set up in advance so you don't have to think about it too much...

Maybe someone else has a better memory on this than me ?

[Nosmo]

As you say, the real trick is getting enough of a body of water to do without too many interruptions/distractions.

Its not the interruptions for me, it is that I've got a lot of turns some quite sharp so under ideal conditions I've got 6 turns that significantly effect the boat speed every lap (~20 minutes/lap), and if it is windy, conditions changed about every 500m. So constant pace is difficult. I rowed on the Connecticut river this summer and it was really different. Over an hour upstream without any singnificant turns didn't see another boat of any type. I would be envious of those who row their but I get to row year round.

....I don't recall seeing anything magic about 3/1' other than it can be programmed on a PM2/3/4 and is easy to keep track of in your head. The fractions of a minute might get a bit tricky unless the PMx has it set up in advance so you don't have to think about it too much...

I always do L3 intervals with the monitor set to time intervals. Didn't occur to me to do it any other way! So 2'/40" is just as easy as 3'/1' to set up.

[Veronique]

Does anyone have direct personal experience doing WP L4 sessions on the water in the kind of volume/distance that one would do on the erg ?

Patrick, I've tried to do just that this year. If you accept that the OTW splits will be a lot more variable than OTE and that you'll have to turn the boat around once in a while, it works out fine. Actually with tail wind, even the OTW splits got pretty consistent for me. (I have quite a few of them in my UK blog for if you're interested.)

One word of caution: I find the WP great for a number of months (up to ~6) but at a certain point it becomes too much to continue to follow it. Because of its progressive nature, every workout becomes quite hard at a certain point in time; that's great for a few weeks just before you plan to peak but it's not reasonable to expect that you can do this indefinitely. I attribute my injury (apart from having to do with being stupid and denying it) in part to my attempts to continue to push it.

Note that Mike himself never followed his plan year-round; instead he structured his training according to the principles for (I believe) 6 months a year and spent the remainder training much less structured. I intend to plan for an "off-season" going forward as well.

[pmacaula]

Veronique - makes sense to me. Glad there are a few people out there to ask questions of regarding the WP on the water.

Agree with you that more than 6 mos or so of continuous WP would be tough. Given I was really just getting back into shape last fall, the improvements came very fast, so it did not seem so onerous.

The new ref pace is sure to make the higher end L4 sessions (> 19spm) a real effort & the L1/L2 sessions real 'hurt box' exercises.

In my case, the real saviour was discovering RP online last January (after 3 mos of solo erging to the WP) & a great bunch of guys to erg with.

Cheers. Patrick.