Help! I’m a pretty strong rower who’s only been rowing short pieces for two months. I had been rowing long (5-15k for over a 1 ½ yrs. ALONE); 1 erg at my gym, until I got to row with some pro’s in power classes, and certified to teach this past December. I had no problem following the cadence of the power classes both fast and slow, as these were competitive erg and on the water rowers, but in trying to build up my strength I am having a time with the 16-18 spms on the Level 4 of the WP.
A little info about myself: a 50 y.o. female, former PT, excellent condition, regular workouts, about 40+k per week.
500/2:03.4, 2k/9:03.6, 5k/23:41.7, 6k/28:25, 10k/50:32.8.
Let me preface by saying that the erg at my gym is an old C that is in need of repair, and there is a notable difference in my times on the ergs I’ve used in the other facilities (maintained) and the one I use. Until they dusted it I couldn’t get the drag above 94. It was filthy. Now I have that it’s “dusted” I have the damper at 3-4 with the drag running 125 -130, but I can’t find my groove. I have a good stroke, and I can slow it down to 19; maybe 18, but then the split gets to high.
Based on my pace, I should be doing 16@2:35/18@2:30. From there it’s pretty manageable, but the 16 – 18 are killing me.
I’m doing 60’ trying to repeat the 16-18 cycles, but I can’t hit that 16. Anyone have any suggestions?
Wolverine Plan Level 4 – hitting the low spms
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excellence
- Paddler
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- Joined: February 13th, 2009, 11:33 pm
Saw your note on the uk site too, but forgot a couple of points:
Your cited L4 paces are for 2:04 2k pace, whereas your cited 2k time 9:03 means pace 2.16. So the L4 paces you note will necessarily be very hard, if that 2k pace is correct. Well done for the ambition anyway. To cut a long story short, suggest you try pulling 100W at rating 20, and other ratings in proportion. Adjust to taste but always keep it long smooth and relaxed, without massive effort. My idea is we need to stay on the borderline where we tax both strength and CV, if we want to get the best overall effect.
At very low ratings it's essential to keep the drag really low, otherwise the flywheel will be almost dead at the catch, and it'll be a slow heave. On the contrary, we want boats to move fast at the catch too, so we can do some real work.
Your cited L4 paces are for 2:04 2k pace, whereas your cited 2k time 9:03 means pace 2.16. So the L4 paces you note will necessarily be very hard, if that 2k pace is correct. Well done for the ambition anyway. To cut a long story short, suggest you try pulling 100W at rating 20, and other ratings in proportion. Adjust to taste but always keep it long smooth and relaxed, without massive effort. My idea is we need to stay on the borderline where we tax both strength and CV, if we want to get the best overall effect.
At very low ratings it's essential to keep the drag really low, otherwise the flywheel will be almost dead at the catch, and it'll be a slow heave. On the contrary, we want boats to move fast at the catch too, so we can do some real work.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.
Excellence,
James offers, as usual sage advice.
But to your question of getting the rating down to 16-18, the only way to get it there is to slow the slide on your recovery. WP L4 implies that the power your exert on the stroke is going to be close to the same regardless of rating and the main difference in pacing/watts comes from the increase/decrease in rating.
Dusting the fan housing regularly is good. I also suggest you try letting the wheel and chain pull you back toward the catch rather than forcing yourself up the slide. Takes a bit of practice but you'll get it soon enough.
This of course may be harder to do if the machine isn't well-maintained. Buy some C2 chain oil, or get some plain mineral oil, and bring it with you the next time you go to your gym, oil and clean the chain and the slide as throughly as possible without leaving excess oil on the chain. And then, if your gym doesn't keep a regular maintenance schedule and you know a host of others also use the machine, bring the oil in every 4-6 weeks and repeat. Instructions can be found on the C2 site. May take another person to help hold the chain as you wipe it down.
James offers, as usual sage advice.
But to your question of getting the rating down to 16-18, the only way to get it there is to slow the slide on your recovery. WP L4 implies that the power your exert on the stroke is going to be close to the same regardless of rating and the main difference in pacing/watts comes from the increase/decrease in rating.
Dusting the fan housing regularly is good. I also suggest you try letting the wheel and chain pull you back toward the catch rather than forcing yourself up the slide. Takes a bit of practice but you'll get it soon enough.
This of course may be harder to do if the machine isn't well-maintained. Buy some C2 chain oil, or get some plain mineral oil, and bring it with you the next time you go to your gym, oil and clean the chain and the slide as throughly as possible without leaving excess oil on the chain. And then, if your gym doesn't keep a regular maintenance schedule and you know a host of others also use the machine, bring the oil in every 4-6 weeks and repeat. Instructions can be found on the C2 site. May take another person to help hold the chain as you wipe it down.
M 64 76 kg
"Sit Down! Row Hard! Go Nowhere!"
"Sit Down! Row Hard! Go Nowhere!"
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tdekoekkoek
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A drag factor of 125-130 is too high. That is (maybe) a good drag for a competitive heavyweight man. It is a mistake to think that if you lower the drag factor you get slower. With a drag factor that high you are likely relying on your back too much. I have mine usually at 115-120 and can pull 1:50 splits at 20 spm.
Also as for rate, while I do recommend low rate pieces, I think plans that set the same rate for all rowers aren't practical. It is obviously much harder for a woman say 5'4" to pull effectively at a 16 than it is for a man 6'4" to do the same.
Also as for rate, while I do recommend low rate pieces, I think plans that set the same rate for all rowers aren't practical. It is obviously much harder for a woman say 5'4" to pull effectively at a 16 than it is for a man 6'4" to do the same.
Trevor de Koekkoek: 46yrs, 190lbs
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hjs
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Re: Wolverine Plan Level 4 – hitting the low spms
Are you using the right pace. Your 2k is 2.16/500m So rate 16 can,t be 2:35 for you. It should be a lot slower.excellence wrote:Help! I’m a pretty strong rower who’s only been rowing short pieces for two months. I had been rowing long (5-15k for over a 1 ½ yrs. ALONE); 1 erg at my gym, until I got to row with some pro’s in power classes, and certified to teach this past December. I had no problem following the cadence of the power classes both fast and slow, as these were competitive erg and on the water rowers, but in trying to build up my strength I am having a time with the 16-18 spms on the Level 4 of the WP.
A little info about myself: a 50 y.o. female, former PT, excellent condition, regular workouts, about 40+k per week.
500/2:03.4, 2k/9:03.6, 5k/23:41.7, 6k/28:25, 10k/50:32.8.
Let me preface by saying that the erg at my gym is an old C that is in need of repair, and there is a notable difference in my times on the ergs I’ve used in the other facilities (maintained) and the one I use. Until they dusted it I couldn’t get the drag above 94. It was filthy. Now I have that it’s “dusted” I have the damper at 3-4 with the drag running 125 -130, but I can’t find my groove. I have a good stroke, and I can slow it down to 19; maybe 18, but then the split gets to high.
Based on my pace, I should be doing 16@2:35/18@2:30. From there it’s pretty manageable, but the 16 – 18 are killing me.
I’m doing 60’ trying to repeat the 16-18 cycles, but I can’t hit that 16. Anyone have any suggestions?
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excellence
- Paddler
- Posts: 14
- Joined: February 13th, 2009, 11:33 pm
WP Level 4 Helpline -
To those of you who replied to my dilemma - thank you, thank you. Today, after another frustrating day I was very happy to see your responses. So, I pulled out my WP manual, and I realize what I did. I calculated correctly for my Level 2 (using his formula) @ 2:28.8, but I made the mistake at Level 4 by taking the # straight from my 500m - 2:03.6, and rounding it up.
So I see what I did. Foolish mistake which has tortured me for many days, but at least I now do not have to continue to feel mentally retarded. I know that I'm dealing with a couple of variables here, and I'll be facing those #'s some day, but for now I can attain this - looking forward to it.
Thanks for the suggestion TabbRows. I actually wiped the chain down with WD-40 on a towel a few wks. ago, and the amount of dirt coming off was unbelievable. I also wiped down the slide, but I didn't lubricate it. I complained to the GM about the dust and dirt hanging down (yes, hanging down) off the flywheel, and the fact that you couldn't see into the housing because it was so dirty, so they dusted it, but that's not the same as a maintenance call. The way the chain jumps I know that it needs to be replaced. I was told they ordered a new erg; that was in November, so this is what I'm working with.
I have the manual for the Model C, but frankly, I think they'd do more harm than good if they started tinkering.
When I certified in December I had to learn how to break the erg down all the way to the chain housing, and to know how the chain is strung. I probably know more about the erg than there "all around" guy. So I'll lub it again. I think that as bad as it was, and the fact that it hasn't been touched in who knows when, I probably didn't make a dent in the problem.
tdekoekkoek - thanks for the drag info. I definitely know that's too high. Today I tried setting it at under 120(117-120). Here's the rub - I'm 5'11, 160#, an athlete (swimming, tennis, etc.) Even though I'm still getting this whole stroke thing down, I have a lot of upper body strength. Now I know it's about control, hence the whole Level 4 thing, but when I go under 3, I feel like I have no control. It's just to light, I know that it's part control, and also the condition of the erg, Under 3 I expend more energy just trying to slow myself down - there isn't enough resistance. I'm by no means putting this all on the erg, but I know just from rowing on "clean" ergs that finding the right setting for what I'm doing, and keeping my posture and form correct are a challenge.
So there you have it. Again, thanx so much for the help. I look forward to any advice or suggestions you have. Unfortunately, I'm having surgery tomorrow (nothing too complicated) so I'll be on lock down for a few until my doctor and I begin to negotiate my w.o. return. - Wish I had 1 more day. Now that I know my #'s were off I feel I need to go in and make this right. I look forward to posting a success when I return. Thanx for the help.
So I see what I did. Foolish mistake which has tortured me for many days, but at least I now do not have to continue to feel mentally retarded. I know that I'm dealing with a couple of variables here, and I'll be facing those #'s some day, but for now I can attain this - looking forward to it.
Thanks for the suggestion TabbRows. I actually wiped the chain down with WD-40 on a towel a few wks. ago, and the amount of dirt coming off was unbelievable. I also wiped down the slide, but I didn't lubricate it. I complained to the GM about the dust and dirt hanging down (yes, hanging down) off the flywheel, and the fact that you couldn't see into the housing because it was so dirty, so they dusted it, but that's not the same as a maintenance call. The way the chain jumps I know that it needs to be replaced. I was told they ordered a new erg; that was in November, so this is what I'm working with.
I have the manual for the Model C, but frankly, I think they'd do more harm than good if they started tinkering.
When I certified in December I had to learn how to break the erg down all the way to the chain housing, and to know how the chain is strung. I probably know more about the erg than there "all around" guy. So I'll lub it again. I think that as bad as it was, and the fact that it hasn't been touched in who knows when, I probably didn't make a dent in the problem.
tdekoekkoek - thanks for the drag info. I definitely know that's too high. Today I tried setting it at under 120(117-120). Here's the rub - I'm 5'11, 160#, an athlete (swimming, tennis, etc.) Even though I'm still getting this whole stroke thing down, I have a lot of upper body strength. Now I know it's about control, hence the whole Level 4 thing, but when I go under 3, I feel like I have no control. It's just to light, I know that it's part control, and also the condition of the erg, Under 3 I expend more energy just trying to slow myself down - there isn't enough resistance. I'm by no means putting this all on the erg, but I know just from rowing on "clean" ergs that finding the right setting for what I'm doing, and keeping my posture and form correct are a challenge.
So there you have it. Again, thanx so much for the help. I look forward to any advice or suggestions you have. Unfortunately, I'm having surgery tomorrow (nothing too complicated) so I'll be on lock down for a few until my doctor and I begin to negotiate my w.o. return. - Wish I had 1 more day. Now that I know my #'s were off I feel I need to go in and make this right. I look forward to posting a success when I return. Thanx for the help.
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M. Podolsky
- 500m Poster
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- Joined: October 1st, 2008, 10:57 am
Re: WP Level 4 Helpline -
I got in trouble here for offering advice on a topic it turned out I knew nothing about, but I do know that WD-40 is not a lubricant, and should not be used on the chain. You need to hit that chain with some oil before you use the machine again.excellence wrote:I actually wiped the chain down with WD-40 on a towel a few wks. ago, and the amount of dirt coming off was unbelievable.
First and foremost, good luck with your surgery! Hopefully that will go well!
I am a relative newbie to the WP. I have been doing it for about 1.5 months. Prior to it I had also been doing about 40k a week. When I first started I found that I couldn't get anywhere near the target pace for 16 either I was waaaaaaay too slow (not using my legs enough) or waaaaaaaaaay to fast on pace (using my legs way too much). I have since figured out the right amount of force. (It also helped that I was told by an old hand at the WP that everyone struggling with the low 16-18 rate stuff.) It does take time. It will help now that you have figured out the right reference pace.
Keep plugging away. As MC says, once you get comfortable with the rate, the pace will follow.
Now on cool down I am able to slow my stroke down to 10 spm (actually hit 9 a couple of times before the PM4 freaked out on me and shot to 62
) without stopping anywhere along the stroke.
I think a df of 117-120 works. I do my L4s at a 118 df (other workouts are done at 114). The slightly higher DF gives me a good balance of resistance that allows me to not feel like I am flailing at lower rates.
I think you can use bike chain lube for the erg chain.
I look forward to hearing about your WP progress.
Emily
I am a relative newbie to the WP. I have been doing it for about 1.5 months. Prior to it I had also been doing about 40k a week. When I first started I found that I couldn't get anywhere near the target pace for 16 either I was waaaaaaay too slow (not using my legs enough) or waaaaaaaaaay to fast on pace (using my legs way too much). I have since figured out the right amount of force. (It also helped that I was told by an old hand at the WP that everyone struggling with the low 16-18 rate stuff.) It does take time. It will help now that you have figured out the right reference pace.
Keep plugging away. As MC says, once you get comfortable with the rate, the pace will follow. Now on cool down I am able to slow my stroke down to 10 spm (actually hit 9 a couple of times before the PM4 freaked out on me and shot to 62
) without stopping anywhere along the stroke. I think a df of 117-120 works. I do my L4s at a 118 df (other workouts are done at 114). The slightly higher DF gives me a good balance of resistance that allows me to not feel like I am flailing at lower rates.
I think you can use bike chain lube for the erg chain.
I look forward to hearing about your WP progress.
Emily
I'm pretty sure you should use 20 weight motor oil not bike chain lube. C2 oil I think is just that, but processed so it is clear. My understanding is that the chain will last much much longer with 20 weight oil then with anything else.Nomugie wrote:I think you can use bike chain lube for the erg chain.