Marathon runner looking for crosstraining tips workouts

[kini62]

Hi, new to the forum but have had my model C rower since about 96 or 97. I used to use it semi-regularly. Then I had a period where I had a knee injury and used it exclusively for about a year and a half.

I haven't used it in over 2 years now. So long that the PM2 died due to corrosion and neglect

Well I have a little knee pain again (not like b4) and would like to use the rower to supplement my marathon training.

I typically run about 40-50mpw and would like to keep it close to that but add some rowing for additional aerobic/anaerobic training without the added stress/pounding on my legs/knees.

So any workouts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I'm in about 3:30 marathon shape currently but would of course like to be in better shape.

46yo male, 155-160lbs depending on training and the fricking holiday food fest!

Thanks
Gene

[atblsb]

A few years back I ran a marathon (~3:20) and used the Concept2 rower as a supplemental cross-trainer. My approach was to use the rowing days as my "easy" days. Looking back at my training records, most of my rows were 30 to 45 minutes in duration where my heartrate stayed around 65% of my maximum (overdistance). Good luck.

[kini62]

Thanks. Did you use the erg for any "speed work" like intervals or maybe as the 2nd workout on 2 a days?

Gene

[Dreadnought]

Thanks. Did you use the erg for any "speed work" like intervals or maybe as the 2nd workout on 2 a days?

Gene

It would make more sense to use it for aerobic base building. You could up the intensity some, maybe up to lactate threshold.

Doing real hard VO2 max intervals could be counterproductive in that you may end up developing extra muscle mass not directly specific to running faster. Rowers tend to be heavier than marathon runners. They have a great engine, but extra weight that holds them back on a run.

If for some reason you are not able to do your running intervals (eg injury) Then C2 intervals would be a reasonable substitute to rev up your engine, keeping in mind that they are not totally specific to running, and you may end up developing more muscle mass than you need for a marathon.

[kini62]

Thanks. Very helpful.

I do need to do more quad work, so I guess some GA work would be a
good addition to my training and get me some quad work to balance out my legs better.

I'm looking forward to adding this to my training. My next marathon starts out with 11 miles of hills and valleys, so this ought to help.

Thanks again
Gene

[BLN]

Cool topic- I've done 3 marathons myself and found cross training to be a good way to get in a lot of workouts without risking knee pain. I generally used erging for either a tempo type workout or a just some extra volume. I would run 10 miles in the morning at an easy pace, and then a 30 minutes or a 10k erg at a good clip~ 165-170 HR. Otherwise if I did a tempo or interval session in the morning I would do an easy erg in the evening at 140-145 HR. Only problem is that if you work pretty hard on the erg I find that it hurts your turnover a little bit, and my legs would feel a little heavy the day after.

I really enjoyed the cross training on the erg, but I also found aqua jogging to be a great workout- you can get your heart rate way up and there is absolutely no stress on your knees. I would aqua jog whenever I was injured (tendonitis and such).

[raymond.botha]

Interesting, I'm doing this the other way round, erg > marathon. Finding alternating days with running / erging allows me too to let the legs get used too all the pounding while maintaining a consistent training program. I'm amazed how strenuous running is, especially the load on the core, although my heart seems to take the least strain.

I also find for the same time invested weight loss is dramatically better from running. The combination seems to give a good balance to total body fitness although I'm not sure I'll make a marathon without a lot more emphasis on running, sacrificing the erg training which I'm not keen to do. Perhaps a shorter running distance would be more prudent ...

Speaking to one of the runners at the local athletics stadium who ran in the Beijing Olympics 1500m final (came 6th) said running is excellent cross-training for rowing.

One thing I can say for runners, they're a friendly bunch. Where in the world would an Olympic coach ask his runners to give space to a novice in baggy shorts using the same community stadium ?

I'd be keen to know what training on the erg does for your running enjoyment.

Ray

[kini62]

I'd be keen to know what training on the erg does for your running enjoyment.

Ray

So far I've haven't been rowing too much. I don't want to add too much too soon. But so far I've done mostly short intervals to add some aerobic training.

I'll run 3-6 miles fairly easy for warmup then do 8-12 400 repeats with 1min rest and 3 mins rest between each 4.

Or 6-8 800s with 2 mins rest.

I plan on adding some easy 5k afternoon rows to my weekday early morning 10 milers as a form of 2 a days without the pounding on the feet and legs.

What little rowing I've been doing has already made a difference I can feel in my quad strength.

As for a marathon, pretty much anyone can finish one but if you want to go for a specific time, then yes you'll have to spend more time on your feet.

Gene

[anthonysemone]

so let me get this straight, while doing the marathon, you're gonna hop off the course, hop on a C2 and row a bit? I've completed over 20 marathons and have had a go at 8 ultras w/ a PB at the 50 mile distance, flat course in 7 hours 40 min plus, 28 years ago and 3 attempts at the Old Dominion 100 mile (50, 50 and 60 miles respectively).

Marathoning is sport specific, that's item #1. Item #2 is that so-called aerobic capacity is nothing that can be developed independently of muscular-skeletal activity. You want to do a marathon at better pace than what you're doing now or have done? Train with less volume, higher intensity and longer rest periods between efforts. e.g., take a look at
http://www.furman.edu.first Don't succumb to the idiotic notion that more is better. Moreover, unless you're gonna create a new sport in which one runs and then C2's and then runs and then C2's, bag the crappy notion that "cross-training" is at all useful, Cross-Fit crap notwithstanding (BTW check out their forum, and go to the section on injuries - it'll blow your mind),

OTOH, whatever floats your boat

tony

[Cazneau]

If you are a recreational runner who struggles to keep his weight down, rowing is a good way to get in more aerobic activity (and calorie burn) without additional pounding. I agree that if you are already at your ideal weight, and are looking at improving your marathon or half marathon times, rowing probably isn't going to be all that useful. For me, I alternate running and rowing as part of a weight loss program that reduces my risk of injury. I also think it gives me a little more "balance" in appearance, by building my shoulders chest and back a bit.

[kini62]

so let me get this straight, while doing the marathon, you're gonna hop off the course, hop on a C2 and row a bit? I've completed over 20 marathons and have had a go at 8 ultras w/ a PB at the 50 mile distance, flat course in 7 hours 40 min plus, 28 years ago and 3 attempts at the Old Dominion 100 mile (50, 50 and 60 miles respectively).

Marathoning is sport specific, that's item #1. Item #2 is that so-called aerobic capacity is nothing that can be developed independently of muscular-skeletal activity. You want to do a marathon at better pace than what you're doing now or have done? Train with less volume, higher intensity and longer rest periods between efforts. e.g., take a look at
http://www.furman.edu.first Don't succumb to the idiotic notion that more is better. Moreover, unless you're gonna create a new sport in which one runs and then C2's and then runs and then C2's, bag the crappy notion that "cross-training" is at all useful, Cross-Fit crap notwithstanding (BTW check out their forum, and go to the section on injuries - it'll blow your mind),

OTOH, whatever floats your boat

tony

"Idiotic notion" that more is better. Well then I guess all the world class marathoners have and are doing it all wrong then?

According to you, they would all be better served by doing nothing but intervals and forget about the 125-150 mile weeks.

Maybe you should call up a couple of them and offer your services, then maybe "finally" one of them will actually be fast or as fast as you in a marathon. So give Brian Sell a call, tell him to forget about his 150 mile weeks because he can go faster if he just runs a few intervals and a tempo run a week. Maybe with your help he can finally beat the east Africans.

So now that that is over. Time to get real. If you want to be a competetive marathoner then you need to #1 Put in the miles, #2 follow a training program that not only puts in A LOT of miles but also the speed work. But number one is and always will be volume.

As for cross training, your off base yet again. It's clear and proven that cross training can and does help the majority. Even the elites encoporate some type of cross training.

Aerobic exercise is aerobic exercise is aerobic exercise..... Whether I spend 30 minutes on my rower at 150bpm or running for 30 minutes at 150bpm my heart and lungs can't tell the difference and it all adds up to the same affect.

Some, maybe a lot, of us just don't have the bodies that allow for the volume of training on our feet that is NEEDED to improve marathon times.

So therefore additional aerobic or anerobic training from cross training is beneficial.

Gene

[johnlvs2run]

I have to agree with Anthony.
There is nothing that's going to improve your running better than running.

For supplemental exercise other than being on one's feet, I'd rank other exercises as follows.
hiking
elliptical
stair stepper
indoor cycling
swimming
rowing - bottom of the list

If I was going to use rowing as a supplement for running a marathon, I'd use it only for occasional short sprints with full rest, and do everything else running, but it's much better to do 100 percent running for running.

[anthonysemone]

Relax, Gene,

any fool can run 150 miles a week if they have the genetics those elite runners have; hell, the challenge would be to see how few miles per week they could run to get the times they do.

but then, by definition as elite runners, there ain't many of em. Sadly though, the fools I ran with all believed they were elite and put huge amounts of mileage, got injured, gave up, burned out.

So, be my guest, run or cross train yourself into a crumpled heap for all give a hoot. Or you could challenge yourself with the task of running your favority marathon at a pace that's realistic and do it with as little as possible.

tony

[kini62]

Relax, Gene,

any fool can run 150 miles a week if they have the genetics those elite runners have; hell, the challenge would be to see how few miles per week they could run to get the times they do.

but then, by definition as elite runners, there ain't many of em. Sadly though, the fools I ran with all believed they were elite and put huge amounts of mileage, got injured, gave up, burned out.

So, be my guest, run or cross train yourself into a crumpled heap for all give a hoot. Or you could challenge yourself with the task of running your favority marathon at a pace that's realistic and do it with as little as possible.

tony

Your post/thinking makes no sense. I could not run at all and do a 7 hour marathon. What's the point? I could run 10 miles a week, all speed work and run ??? There is no way to tell what "as little as possible is". If there were then everyone would be doing it.

Basically, unless you're just plain gifted, you're not going to break 3 hours on less than 60-70mpw. 2:45 another likely bump to 80-100mpw. It's just the way it is for the vast majority of those that are capable of those kind of times.

For many, me included, at age 46 even if I could put in 70-80mpw I doubt that I would ever run a 3:00 marathon.

The goal is not to do as little as possible but to do as much as possible without getting injured or over trained. This will maximize performance. Crosstraining is just another component of the process to maximize performance.

Nobody ever won Olympic Gold doing as "little as possible".

Gene

[anthonysemone]

so, if you could do a marathon in 3 hrs on 30 miles a week average, instead of doing 80 miles a week, you'd rather do 80 miles a week average, you'd rather do 80 miles a week??

tony