2008 review: Xeno Müller disappoints.....

[rowland]

Sunday, November 02, 2008
Side By Side Comparison WaterRower And Concept2
Hello Rowers

I love my WaterRower.

Today I had a side by side comparison of the WaterRower and the Concept2 at a regatta here in Newport Beach, called NARF (Newport Autumn Rowing Festival).

Here are a few reasons why I enjoy the WaterRower:

1. The WaterRower is made out of wood and the design is pleasing to the eye.
2. You have a clear view of the scenery, because there is no huge flywheel sitting ahead of the foot board. This makes TV viewing easy and face to face rowing with a partner more comfortable.
3. The seat is form fitting and comfortable, no need for a seat pad or folded towel to keep the rear from getting soar.
4. The handle is softer to the touch and therefore kinder on the finger joints.
5. The belt mechanism is quiet, whereas the concept2 chain noise is loud and metalic. 6. The water sound is quieter and kinder to the ears than the whistle of the C2 flywheel. This makes rowing at home more social with non rowing family members.
7. The connection at the beginning of the rowing stroke (catch) is smoother on the WaterRower than on the C2.
8. The resistance on the WaterRower is more evenly spread out through the stroke, from catch to finish, than on the C2, where you find the resistance of the finish running out, unless you really keep the acceleration going to the point that it does not feel like real rowing anymore.
9. I enjoy the horizontal track on the WaterRower, instead of the slight slope that the Concept2 has, which makes over compressing the knees more likely.
I am very excited about rowing the WaterRower.

To Concept2's defense, stroke rates of 38 and above run more smoothly through the chain mechanism.

All the best,
Xeno

The link that Xeno posted didn't work, so I did a search and here it is, Without going over things point by point, and wanting to end this thread on a good note, I wish you [Xeno] the best with your business and your WaterRowers.

Ps I will not be selling my C2 anytime soon but I will say I did enjoy reading Xeno's blog.

[zen cohen]

I emailed the link to this thread to Xeno and his reply follows:

You tattled? Good grief.

Are you joking? I think anyone who's (unfairly, IMO) being called a sleaze should be able to hear about it and respond. If you think it's "tattling" to extend this courtesy, you have a pretty juvenile way of looking at it.

[johnlvs2run]

I'm interested in the freeflow of ideas, and what works the best based on cost.

This being said, the points raised in the link - not having used a water rower - appear to be quite valid to me, in particular as to the faults with C2. I suggested lowering the fan cage, and use of a belt instead of a chain quite a few years ago. The slope of the railing has gone backwards through the years, now worse than ever. It used to be relatively level. The seat still gets constant complaints, and the monitor is not as good as the previous one for home use. None of this has made any difference to C2.

I'd be interested to use a waterrower, though they do have their own issues. They are heavy, sluggish, inconsistent and quite expensive. There is not much of any monitor to speak of, unless this has been changed quite recently. Anyone considering either should make a thorough comparison.

http://indoor-rowing.blogspot.com/searc ... 20Concept2

[Ducatista]

If you think it's "tattling" to extend this courtesy, you have a pretty juvenile way of looking at it.

Juvenile, schmuvenile. (How's that for mature?)

Maybe Xeno was glad to get your link, in which case, good work.

But saying "Hey, Xeno, somebody wrote something mean about you, and I want you to see it. Here, look, it's right here!" sounds awfully busybody to me, doubly so when you publicly proclaim that you've done it. I can't imagine wanting to be on the receiving end of that, but XMMV.

[zen cohen]

If you think it's "tattling" to extend this courtesy, you have a pretty juvenile way of looking at it.

Juvenile, schmuvenile. (How's that for mature?)

Maybe Xeno was glad to get your link, in which case, good work.

But saying "Hey, Xeno, somebody wrote something mean about you, and I want you to see it. Here, look, it's right here!" sounds awfully busybody to me, doubly so when you publicly proclaim that you've done it. I can't imagine wanting to be on the receiving end of that, but XMMV.

You're pretty quick to be projecting motives of people you don't know, Ducatista, and he suggested I post it. In any case, seems you're a little self-ironic with the busybody charge considering your multiple posts here pronouncing your disapproval of someone else's behavior.

To steer this back to a rowing discussion, I doubt I'll ever sell my C2 even if better ergs come along. C2 has a great business model for maintaining customer loyalty with its ranking and competitions. and it's forums are (usually) great, too. That said I'm curious about other high-end rowers and hope to try out a water rower.

[Ducatista]

You're pretty quick to be projecting motives of people you don't know, Ducatista, and he suggested I post it. In any case, seems you're a little self-ironic with the busybody charge considering your multiple posts here pronouncing your disapproval of someone else's behavior.

Easy there, not-so-zen. If you didn't want me to respond to your post, you shouldn't have asked me a question.

I answered... and my "in which case" was sincere, as was XMMV (and who doesn't love a new initialism?).

[zen cohen]

You're pretty quick to be projecting motives of people you don't know, Ducatista, and he suggested I post it. In any case, seems you're a little self-ironic with the busybody charge considering your multiple posts here pronouncing your disapproval of someone else's behavior.

Easy there, not-so-zen. If you didn't want me to respond to your post, you shouldn't have asked me a question.

I answered... and my "in which case" was sincere, as was XMMV (and who doesn't love a new initialism?).

OK, let's leave it at that. How about we move on and get back to erging? Not all that many people with that in common.

[Ducatista]

Deal. Erg on.

[Ducatista]

In fact, I'll even stay on topic: For a facility like Xeno's, potential for injury has to be a major consideration. Ranking and racing, not so much. So his "kinder, gentler" justifications for going the WaterRower route make sense to me.

He and I differ on aesthetics, however. His "pleasing to the eye" is my "looks like a craft project." And I like the sound of my old (1994) Model C. I usually listen to my iPod while erging, but every once in a while I'll row with no distractions, just the audible feedback from the chain and flywheel. It's especially gratifying to have objective confirmation of my extra effort when I'm really pulling hard.

[zen cohen]

In fact, I'll even stay on topic: For a facility like Xeno's, potential for injury has to be a major consideration. Ranking and racing, not so much. So his "kinder, gentler" justifications for going the WaterRower route make sense to me.

He and I differ on aesthetics, however. His "pleasing to the eye" is my "looks like a craft project." And I like the sound of my old (1994) Model C. I usually listen to my iPod while erging, but every once in a while I'll row with no distractions, just the audible feedback from the chain and flywheel. It's especially gratifying to have objective confirmation of my extra effort when I'm really pulling hard.

I'm only about 20 - 30 minutes from his gym so now that they have the water rowers maybe I'll finally make it over there for a workout to see for myself if they live up to Xeno's high praise. Even if so, they're still expensive and if there's no way to reliably match things such as split times with C2s that's prolly a deal killer for me. Even though I'm not a strong rower I like having a lot of other people to compare my performance with. Helps motivate me to keep improving.

[JRBJR]

I too am dissappointed by Xeno's sudden embrace of the WaterRower, which I've personally tried and find inferior to the C2 with slides on numerous counts. But as previously stated, his rationale for the switch is his own choice and probably business-related. For one, he can fit quite a bit more of them in his rather small Costa Mesa studio than he could the C2s with slides, so this increases his class size potential.

As others have also noted, it must be difficult to earn a living from an indoor erg studio, particularly in these economically depressed times. It is his personal perogrative to make the switch in ergs. Whatever allows him to continue to earn a living for his family is fine by me, so long as he doesn't resort to pushing misleading information in his quest for new WaterRower devotees, something a respected Olympic gold and silver medal-winning rower with plenty of admirers should not do.

However, I won't be buying any more technique DVDs from him if he uses the WaterRower instead of the C2. And that is my perogative.

[Rockin Roland]

Xeno's reasons for switching brands makes good sense. C2 no longer have the best product as there are now several erg manufacturers with an erg that can do things better than C2.

C2 have a great monitor but the rest of the erg is nothing flash and has changed very little since the model B. Biorower, Rowperfect, Oartec and Water Rower all offer advantages over the humble C2. I've tried all of them except the Biorower. I'm impressed with most of them. C2 is standing still while the opposition is coming up with better ideas.

C2's R&D seems to be focused on the monitor but it's the rest of the machine that needs more attention. It's only saving grace is Slides. In fact anyone using a C2 erg without slides is NUTS. Not only do you risk injury but also developing crappy rowing technique that will be difficult to correct.

I predict that within the next decade most of the leading rowing nations will be doing their national team selections on slides (that's if they don't change brands like Xeno before then).

Price and customer service mean very little when you know that there are people out there getting a more satisfying workout on a better machine.

Just for the record my ideal erg would be as follows: The sweap oar dynamics from an "Oartec" with a moving flywheel from "Rowperfect" however using water like "Water Rower" instead of air for resistance. A whisper quiet carbon fiber belt drive from "Gates" rather than a chain. The monitor would have to be from Rowperfect however with some PM4 features added to it. Plus the customer service and distribution of C2.

[rowland]

rockin roland said,

Price and customer service mean very little when you know that there are people out there getting a more satisfying workout on a better machine.

Price and customer service doesn't matter to you. Your words sound like you are very dissatisfied with C2. I hope you have made the switch to " a more satisfying workout on a better machine." Could you please tell us which indoor rower you now row on.
I am glad to see customer service is not important to you. It is hard enough just trying to buy one of the rowers you listed, that are made in AU, never mind getting one serviced. Best of luck with the service.
I did searches on the rowers you listed. their prices were very high, I couldn't even find a price for Rowperfect, you have to call for pricing. I am sure they are well over $2000, [that price was from Xeno's blog ] Oartec and Biorower were even much higher than that.
The Rowperfect looks like a converted Model B. I wonder how quite that rower is? I also wonder how windy it is rowing indoors? I can remember papers flying all over the room rowing on a B.

Over and over Xeno, in his blog, has stated how important he thinks rowing with slides are for his students. If that was`so important, he should have stuck to the C2 on slides if the Rowperfect was not available.

[Rockin Roland]

rockin roland said,

Price and customer service mean very little when you know that there are people out there getting a more satisfying workout on a better machine.

Price and customer service doesn't matter to you. Your words sound like you are very dissatisfied with C2. I hope you have made the switch to " a more satisfying workout on a better machine." Could you please tell us which indoor rower you now row on.

Over and over Xeno, in his blog, has stated high important he thinks rowing with slides are for his students. If that were`so important, he should have stuck to the C2 on slides if the Rowperfect was not available.

Don't get me wrong. C2 ergs are a good basic design and come at a relatively low price. Unfortunately the features that I'm looking for in an erg are in the higher end of the market and consequently come at a higher cost. The simpler design of the C2 erg for various reasons no longer serves my needs. I still own a C2 erg with slides but when possible tend to use the other machines when I can get access to them.

I'm waiting for the new model Rowperfect to be released(which shouldn't be too far away now) before making a final decision on purchase between that and the Oartec. Although they both come from the land down under anyone in the USA wanting to purchase one could do so from the USA distributors. I believe at the moment these are two local rowing boat building firms in the USA. These are well established firms hence customer service should be Ok.

Xeno has a problem of trying to accommodate C2 ergs on slides in his studio because of the huge amount of space required for them. The other brands of ergs offer a more compact design together with a lower risk of injury to pupils.

I have spoken to the owners of both Rowperfect and Oartec. My impression is that the Rowperfect will be marketed in competition to the C2 erg and the Oartec as a much cheaper alternative to the Biorower. Hence they are both looking at different markets but with some cross-over.

[Ducatista]

In fact anyone using a C2 erg without slides is NUTS. Not only do you risk injury but also developing crappy rowing technique that will be difficult to correct.

Brilliant.

I have a set of slides — leaning up against the wall of my garage. I gave them a fair shake, but finally had to admit I prefer erging without them. I never stopped missing the swing-like feeling of movement I get on a grounded erg.

My technique won't win any beauty contests, I'm sure, but it doesn't suck, and since my OTW days are over (rowing season and riding season exactly coincide, and riding wins), it suits my purpose just fine.

Injury, hmmm. Since my technique is decent, and I'm not pulling for glory, I'd rank my erg as slightly more dangerous than my electric toothbrush and significantly less risky than my daily walk to and from work.