New Wolverine Plan Thread

[Bill Moore]

Patrick,

I hadn't projected out the strokes like that but it's worth a look.

The plan is to add 4 strokes to each workout of the same total time if I don't hit the distance or take too many strokes, therefore I already had a setback with my first L4 40' attempt yesterday by taking too many strokes.

I have 29 - 60' workouts planned through April. (There are also 40', 50', 70', and even some 2x40'). The plans is to also add 10' total L4 time per week (yes, that's adding 3.5 hours to the weekly total over the next 5 months). I also want to add 6' sequences sometime.

If there were no setbacks on the 60' workouts, total strokes would increase from 1044 to 1156. That takes the SPM from 17.4 to 19.3, which is a lot less than the 20+ you predicted. I feel that's another reason to not re-set the reference pace - more strokes and a higher pace seems bit much for trying to build distance per stroke capacity. In fact, now that I look at the total SPM increase over the next 5 months, I'll probably back off my 4 stroke weekly addition and mix up the sequences for the same time frame. I do recall Mike covering this in the original plan, and I'll go back and read the specifics again.

I do hear what you're saying though. Eventually our well laid plans run into physical limitations, and the L4 workouts shouldn't feel like an L2. It's still fatigues the right muscles, and I suspect will allow us to maintain long, hard strokes under pressure when we race or do a longer than usual workout.

[pmacaula]

The plan is to add 4 strokes to each workout of the same total time...I have 29 - 60' workouts planned through April...If there were no setbacks on the 60' workouts, total strokes would increase from 1044 to 1156. That takes the SPM from 17.4 to 19.3..

Bill - Your starting point of 17.4 (I started at 18.0) answers part of my question. Your target rate of progress (18 weeks to the start of April, 22 to the end) suggests approx. +0.1spm/week through April. Same as suggested by Mike C. in a few of his posts.

Am I reading your note right that you are continuously increasing volume for 20 weeks ?
If you are adding 210' of L4 between now & April, what is the starting point ? 210' alone sounds like a lot.
I had thought that the deal with L4 was to ramp up to a target volume (say - 160'/week) over a few weeks, then keep it relatively constant and steadily increase rate. Doing both for 20 weeks seems like a very steep mountain indeed.
Have you done it this way before & found it works for you ?

Agree with you about putting some variety into L4s. Have tried pretty much every one of the basic flavours of L4. Though 60' continuous is the bread & butter workout, doing interval L4s (7x6', 4x10', 2x40') once a week makes it more interesting.

Within the 60' continuous format, learned the hard way about variety. Mistakenly structured one to hit a target # of strokes without looking at the resulting sequences until I started the workout. 184/188/192/188/192/180. From 10' to 50', it was a monotonous 2' alternation of 18/20/18/20/... Almost went bananas.

I now try not to put the same sequence in a workout more than once, mix odd & even numbered sequences in each workout and have been adding the 'fun' ^ sequences. Last night was 180/190/196/200^/194/182. Not sure if that much variety defeats part of the purpose (internalizing the feel of each rate & level of effort), but it certainly keeps the old brain busy from start to finish.

Curious to know your view on the 6' sequences. Have found them good for 3:1 work:recovery intervals, but tough to get as much variety as with the 10' sequences.

A related question. Does anyone have a view of and experience with effective use of 6' sequences for longer continuous efforts ? Pointers (or warnings to stay away) ?

Did a 54' (9x6') continuous effort when building to target volume & at the time, was more concerned about successful completion than variety, so ended up with a bland workout - 104/112/104/112/108/112/104/112/104. Felt it would be necessary to have a VERY wide range of sequences to make it interesting.
Was also one of my worst L4s for hitting stroke rate & pace targets. Lost my place a few times on the start time for each sequence (i.e. Sequence # 6 starts at 24' to go, etc instead of each 10'). Should have written them down ahead of time, but didn't. Have not done a long continuous workout with 6' sequences since.

Cheers. Patrick.

[Nosmo]

Why do so many people do the same few Level 1 sessions time after time?

Because I haven't gotten bored with them yet. OTW I have varied them a fair amount. Sometimes to accommodate other people I'm rowing, sometimes because of the convenience of fitting in a distance without running out of room or having a turn, and sometimes I've done L1s with starts, 250s and 500s for preparation for a 1000m sprint race.
For the L2's I've done a lot of 3x2650m because 2650 is the longest distance one can easily do while keeping with the normal traffic pattern and also without a stake turn.

There have been a few times I made up an L4 sequence. Last time was when I ended up having to stop a bit early so I skipped the CD and finished off with 22/20/18/16 at 2'/2'/2'/4'. Seemed like a reasonable compromise between stopping early and skipping the CD.

[nharrigan]

Here’s a general question for anybody who has an opinion. Why do so many people do the same few Level 1 sessions time after time? I like to hit the obvious formats regularly (8 x 500m or 4 x 1K) to check my progress against a format that I’m familiar with and know how to pace, but I also like to be creative with different sessions for variety, as long as they satisfy the general Level 1 parameters I’ve established.

Personally, I like to keep the L1s simple. That's the reason I've stuck mostly with the 1ks and 500s.
In rereading some of your comments, I've noticed that you mention time based L1s, as well as the 15x1'on 1' recovery.

When do the intervals get to be too long or too short. Is 12x333m too short or 3x1333m too long?

Thanks,

Neil

[Bill Moore]

Patrick,

Oops. You detected a flaw in my plan. I'll only want to increase intensity or time in any given week, but not both. That will significantly bring the final SPM down and not have 5 hours per week of L4 workouts. I'm going to write my plan each week based on the prior week's performance, so I hadn't planned too many of the details that far in advance. Somewhere in there, I'll consider putting in 6' sequences, to mix things up, but I haven't tried to make long workouts out of them just yet.

I was aware of looking at the sequences for each workout to not get stuck in that boring alternating workout you did. 16/18 for more than 12' straight would drive me nuts.

One part of my plan is a buildup through April, which will make it a 6 month sustained effort and provide a strong base for the following year's training. I'll take 4 months from May - August and add weights (if I can hold back until then) and back off the total meters before starting another 6 month cycle for the 2010 Crash-Bs next September. I haven't been consistent with annual training cycles since I swam in college, so this is going to be a first for me. I did about 5 good months in 2005, but have been a slacker since then. I also don't know what the specific training is truly going to be like beyond any given 3 week cycle.

A quick note on the other posts regarding L1 workouts...I feel like 500-1,000 meters is the right interval length, since anything shorter might be too short (although 10x400m sounds great after doing the 8x500 last night) and any longer than 1k would be truly ugly. What about mixing up 500s & 1ks? 2x500, 1k, 2x500, 1k. The 500m would be faster than the 1k. How about 1k, 500, 1k, 500, 1k? Lots of variables to think about...I might just stick with the basics for now.

[Mike Caviston]

Personally, I like to keep the L1s simple. That's the reason I've stuck mostly with the 1ks and 500s.
In rereading some of your comments, I've noticed that you mention time based L1s, as well as the 15x1'on 1' recovery.

When do the intervals get to be too long or too short. Is 12x333m too short or 3x1333m too long?

Anyone know the answer? Class? Class? Anyone? Bueller?

It’s often simplest, especially in terms of pacing, to do multiple intervals of the same length. 8 x 500m is a staple, as is 4 x 1K, though that is just too tough to do too often. I also like 5 x 750m and sometimes do 6 x 650m. But I also like to do sessions with pieces of varying length. The pyramid is one example. Alternating 500m and 1K is another possibility. Since I don’t like to do 1K slower than 2K pace, and I’m generally not up to a complete 4 x 1K early in the season, I do hybrid formats until I have the stamina for 4 hard 1K intervals. So maybe 1K, 750m, 750m, 500m, 500m, and 500m. Then 1K, 1K, 750m, 750m, 500m. Then 1K, 1K, 1K, 500m, 500m and then finally 4 x 1K. One format I’ve taken to is 1K, 800m, 700m, 600m, 500m, 400m. What about pacing and recovery, you ask? There are no absolute hard and fast rules, but I’ve already provided some pretty clear guidelines.

[Bill Moore]

Yesterday's workout was an L3 12.5k @ 2:10. I had only about 4 hours of sleep the night before, so the warmup and the first half of the session were a drag, but every interval was at 2:10.0 or lower and I finished with a 2:09.7 average. The HR was 8 beats higher than my last steady row on 11/29 which had the same pace, so it just shows how important rest and recovery is for fitness.

Today will be a repeat of Sunday's L4 40' session (172/176/172/176). Since I overstroked the 176 segments by 4 strokes, I'll be concentrating on the rate. (And the pace obviously, but I can generally get the pace once I find the rate. It's simply a matter of getting enough experience with the feel for the combinations and managing the transitions so I can hit the rate/pace targets).

One thing I'm NOT doing this year is the weekly racing before really establishing a solid training base. Online racing is fantastic, and I do want to get back to it, but I'll delay that until after April. There was one particular 1k handicapped race in 2005 that included people from Spain, England, Canada, Thailand, and a few others here in New England, and it was a strong race to the finish. Where else can we do something like this? It's an incredible experience that I'd recommend for everyone.

[Bill Moore]

Mike,

I noticed all of your alternative intervals in your last post were decending in length. I was proposing ascending distances. The decending intervals would allow one to go faster during the session and get a good feel for increasing speed under stress. The ascending intervals would add to the stress and build endurance for for race pace. I haven't sampled either of these alternatives other than the L1 Pyramid sample you gave us, where it feels much better on the downhill than the climb.

So is there a physiological preference for the effects of ascending vs. decending interval distances in L1 workouts? Psychologically, I'd think the ascending would be harder. With a constant pace, the ascending set would allow for overload to kick in, while you'd have to increase the pace in a decending set to get to the overload stage.

[nharrigan]

It’s often simplest, especially in terms of pacing, to do multiple intervals of the same length. 8 x 500m is a staple, as is 4 x 1K, though that is just too tough to do too often. I also like 5 x 750m and sometimes do 6 x 650m. But I also like to do sessions with pieces of varying length. The pyramid is one example. Alternating 500m and 1K is another possibility. Since I don’t like to do 1K slower than 2K pace, and I’m generally not up to a complete 4 x 1K early in the season, I do hybrid formats until I have the stamina for 4 hard 1K intervals. So maybe 1K, 750m, 750m, 500m, 500m, and 500m. Then 1K, 1K, 750m, 750m, 500m. Then 1K, 1K, 1K, 500m, 500m and then finally 4 x 1K. One format I’ve taken to is 1K, 800m, 700m, 600m, 500m, 400m. What about pacing and recovery, you ask? There are no absolute hard and fast rules, but I’ve already provided some pretty clear guidelines.

Mike,
Thanks for posting your L1 intervals. The pacing and rest guidelines are easy enough to follow for variable length intervals. I was under the false impression that the 4x1k was the most important L1 session and should make up the bulk of the L1s. My mistake.

I'm not sure the younger readers will get your movie reference.

-Neil

[michaelb]

One thing I'm NOT doing this year is the weekly racing before really establishing a solid training base. Online racing is fantastic, and I do want to get back to it, but I'll delay that until after April. There was one particular 1k handicapped race in 2005 that included people from Spain, England, Canada, Thailand, and a few others here in New England, and it was a strong race to the finish. Where else can we do something like this? It's an incredible experience that I'd recommend for everyone.

Wondering where you have been Bill. I think I remember that race because 1) it was the day I made lwt; 2) it was one of the first online races to go off with 7-8 boats; 3) I got touched out by Joe Greco in the closing meters.

You should see what rowing now online with 16 boats is like. I need a bigger monitor. Even if you don't race online, you certainly could do some of the training rows online.

[Bill Moore]

Wondering where you have been Bill. I think I remember that race because 1) it was the day I made lwt; 2) it was one of the first online races to go off with 7-8 boats; 3) I got touched out by Joe Greco in the closing meters.

You should see what rowing now online with 16 boats is like. I need a bigger monitor. Even if you don't race online, you certainly could do some of the training rows online.

That was an epic race. I put my head down in the last 100 and stayed in front of the guys that were catching me. At 6'3" & 220# with limited fat, I wasn't about to let myself get caught by the lightweights. I think that was the race I discovered my potential speed, even though I never went sub-7 then. I'm sure I'll get back there and more with the training this year.

We had our 4th kid in November 2005 and that interferred with life a bit more than expected. We just had our 6th in October and are finally done having kids. (No procedure scheduled yet, but I'll be shooting blanks eventually). I also bought a company in 2006 and sold it earlier this year, so there shouldn't be any more excuses.

16 boats? Yikes. That would be awesome for a short handicap race, which is very tempting. I'll checkout the online training sessions, but with six kids, I have to get the workouts when I can, which usually means late at night. I will be at Crash-Bs this year and can join you on the RowPro Rower Team.

[Mike Caviston]

So is there a physiological preference for the effects of ascending vs. decending interval distances in L1 workouts? Psychologically, I'd think the ascending would be harder. With a constant pace, the ascending set would allow for overload to kick in, while you'd have to increase the pace in a decending set to get to the overload stage.

My preponderance for descending distances is psychological, and your comparison of ascending and descending seems reasonable to me. I’ve always meant to do 400m, 500m, 600m, 700m, 800m, 1K as a lark, but I’ve always been able to manufacture an excuse not to. Another variation I’ve been meaning to try is draw each distance out of a hat and perform the session in random order. I had the U of M team do a Level 2 once as 2K, 2.5K, 3K and they hated me for days. It’s good to challenge ourselves mentally once in a while, but probably we get more intensity and so more overall training benefit with the descending format.

Thanks for posting your L1 intervals. The pacing and rest guidelines are easy enough to follow for variable length intervals. I was under the false impression that the 4x1k was the most important L1 session and should make up the bulk of the L1s. My mistake.

I'm not sure the younger readers will get your movie reference.

Making 4 x 1K a common L1 session isn’t a mistake. I think it’s the single most effective workout for training and estimating 2K speed. But that’s a two-edged sword – it is easily the most demanding workout, both physically and mentally. I caution against doing it too frequently, and one out of three L1 sessions is about as frequent as I can take.

You got my movie reference, but can you answer the question? Cheers.

[nharrigan]

You got my movie reference, but can you answer the question? Cheers.

If you're referring to the interval length question, I found this quote.

Long story short, for an event of the intensity/duration of a 2K (i.e., all-out for 6-8 min), the “optimal” volume for the session is 150-250% race distance (3-5K in this case) broken up into intervals roughly ¼ - ½ race distance (500m-1K in this case). I’m partial to a total volume of 4K (not only 8 x 500m but also 5 x 750m and 4 x 1K) because they fit comfortably into an hour training block (including warm-up and a brief cool-down). If someone did a hard 10 x 500m the intensity would have to be less than a hard 8 x 500m, which again would be less intense than a hard 6 x 500m (for someone giving their best effort for each workout). Because of the interplay between volume and intensity, I don’t have the final word on which format is “best”. While I normally choose 8 x 500m, there have been situations where I was forced to limit the workout to 3 x 500m and I’ve still considered it a productive workout. Just not optimal.

So 1/4 to 1/2 of race length is the optimal L1 interval length. Is there something I'm missing here?

Regards,

Neil

[pmacaula]

So is there a physiological preference for the effects of ascending vs. decending interval distances in L1 workouts?...

Bill - Agree with Mike, ascending distance intervals (as opposed to pyramids) sound like a nasty bit of work. One of the things that keeps me going in the latter part of equal distance (and the back side of pyramid) intervals is that I have 'trained' my head for the amount of work during the earlier ones. Going at the same speed or faster seems hard but doable. Holding the same pace for increasing distances sounds like misery.

Taking a shot at answering your (or Mike/Ben Stein's) question on the suitability of 12x333m or 3x1333m for L1. I recall the WP distance guideline was intervals of 250m to 1km, though longer is possible. The key factor is ability to maintain intensity in each piece at your reference 2K pace or better. So, 12x333m should be no problem, but 3x1333m might be tough. If holding the same or better pace than a maximal 2K through all 3 1333m intervals does not "challenge your will to live", then it might be time to do a 2K test and reset your reference.

Gads - it even feels like I'm back in school.

Mike - It is somewhat of a relief to know that even you have a tough time with workouts like the 4x1K. Every time I do it, I think of your "will to live" comment (from somewhere in the WP or forum postings) about setting pace properly.

[ancho]

Interesting thread, I'm thinking about getting back into the WP, and will have to review my L1 approach.

Keep it on!