comparing B to E

[dazzlindino]

I have a B model concept 2 and was wondering if it compares equally with the newer models
Row with the large sprocket, air guard open.
So if I row 2K in 8:00 min on a B , would there be any differece in time
on the newer rowers?

[Nosmo]

I have a B model concept 2 and was wondering if it compares equally with the newer models
Row with the large sprocket, air guard open.
So if I row 2K in 8:00 min on a B , would there be any differece in time
on the newer rowers?

The short answer is No assuming the B is properly functioning.

Complicated answer: According to PaulS, there is a very small speed dependent difference in times between the B with a PM1 and the nwer models (C,D&E). They measure the same at a 1:50 pace and the difference increases the further away from 1:50 you get--but it really is a very small difference. Also there may be some subtle differences for an individual athlete because of how comfortable they are on each machine. But all of this is most likely much smaller then the day to day variation in your row.

[johnlvs2run]

There is no difference between the machines, with the exception that the B is smoother and has better mechanics.

There is a difference in timing, due to faulty conversion of watts to pace on the pm1 monitor, which is regardless of the pace.
Whether it is slower or faster than 1:50 makes no difference.

To clarify, the watts reading is consistent and accurate, but the internal conversion to the pace reading is not.
If you row an even 2:00 pace by the watts, the pace reading could vary from 2:01 to 2:04 going the same pace.
The watts reading would be kept the same, and the pace reading would vary.

Your 2:00 pace reading, would be faster converting from the watts, and faster on a pm2-4 monitor.
Solutions to this are to (1) calculate the pace manually from watts for every piece, or (2) get a pm2 monitor.

[dazzlindino]

Thanks for the replies.....will row on!
So covering the wheel to not allow airflow does not influence it either?

[TabbRows]

As a regular B rower (PM2) with occasional forays on Ds, the biggest difference I see is in adjusting the drag factor. It's harder for me to get the B drag down below 130. I have the speed ring that sometimes shakes open more during a session and the next time my drag is a bit higher. When I'm using a D it's at the gym and depending upon the machine, I've had the lever as low as 4 and as high as 8 to get a 120-125 drag. Also the effort on the D seems to produce slightly higher pacings at similar ratings, for example, at a moderate effort 26 rating on the B I'll pull a 2:01-2:03, but at what I perceive as a similar effort on the D, I'll sometimes pull at 1:58-1:59. But again I think its' more the particular D machine than any difference between the B or the D mechanically.

[PaulS]

They actually converge at a 1:55 pace, but you've got the right idea. The sprocket differences will make it impossible to equate the two exactly (for DF feel), but you can get close.

[johnlvs2run]

Thanks for the replies.....will row on!
So covering the wheel to not allow airflow does not influence it either?

Making a speed ring is a good idea, as this gives you a better range of resistances.

It won't change the watts, but will give you a better feel, and help your timing and rhythm.

I had the B down to a 65 drag factor, with a speed ring, perimeter cover, and a 14 tooth cogwheel.

[dazzlindino]

Changed to the smaller sprocket on the b model and dropped my 2k time from 8:00 to 7:37, it is a harder pull but definately get more speed this way...
any training tips on the best way to lower a 2K time?

I am 50 yo and 6' and 190 pnds 20.6% fat! ouch....hurts to type it....

[Sheepster]

I had the B down to a 65 drag factor, with a speed ring, perimeter cover, and a 14 inch cogwheel.

Could you explain what you had to do to lower the drag on the model B. (I'm unfamiliar with what a speed ring is or what you you mean by perimeter cover.) Was the 14 inch cogwheel something extra you had to install? Are these easy adjustments to make?

I'm just wondering because I'm going to look at a model B at a garage sale. However, I always row with the lowest damper setting, which on the actual machines I row on, translates to either a drag factor of 70 (preferred) or 80-85. I wouldn't get the machine unless I knew I could get the drag factor down to what I can handle.

Thanks.

[Nosmo]

A speed ring is a plastic disk that goes around the side of the cage around the damper windows. C2 sells them cheep or you can make your own out of cardboard. You can also some duct tape around the cage to lower the drag factor even more. Basically anything to block the air will decrease the drag factor.

I think John ment to write 14 TOOTH cog not INCH. The model B has two cogs and you can switch between them by manually moving the chain (while the fly wheel is not moving of course).

[johnlvs2run]

Could you explain what you had to do to lower the drag on the model B. (I'm unfamiliar with what a speed ring is or what you you mean by perimeter cover.) Was the 14 inch cogwheel something extra you had to install? Are these easy adjustments to make?

A speed ring is a ring that you install on the fan side of the erg, which lowers the resistance by blocking most of the air intake to the fan. You are still able to use the regular intake adjustment on the B, which will give you a similar range of resistances to the later models.

Black roofing paper is easiest material to make a speed ring, along with plastic ties for attachment. What I did was poke holes through a stick at 0, 7 and 9 inches, put a nail through at 0 then drew lines around the roofing paper to make two semicircles. I cut out the semicircles between 7 and 9 inches which made two 1/2's that fit perfectly to the cage. These are attached to the cage with two plastic ties.

You can definitely get the resistance down to where you want with a speed ring.

You don't really need a perimeter cover, but it's just more roofing paper, about 5 inches wide that is attached around the perimeter of the cage, and will lower the resistance a bit more. Mostly I made the perimeter ring to reduce noise and to keep the air from blowing in my face. As alternative, you could block just a part of the perimeter, so the air will be directed where you wish.

- - - - -

The modelB has 13 and 15 tooth cogwheels. The later models have a 14 tooth cogwheel. There is no reason to change them, unless you have a pm2 and want to see the exact drag factor equivalent reading to later models. But you don't really need this, and changing the cogwheel is more involved than making a speed ring.

[johnlvs2run]

modelB with speed ring (made with truck tire innertube) and 1/4 of a perimeter cover.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... nside1.jpg

home made monitor arm
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... gside1.jpg

full perimeter cover with innertube (not as nice as black roofing paper)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y41/jo ... itorb4.jpg

Black roofing paper was the first material that I used, is easy to use and looks great.

[Sheepster]

Thanks. That was helpful. I looked at the machine today - a model B with a PM 1 monitor from 1993.

I tried it out briefly and it doesn't seem like I need to worry too much about the drag factor. It didn't seem so bad when I tried it out. Perhaps it was lowered by the cobwebs/dust or machine placement. The breeze was nice and a new experience for me. I forgot to ask how many meters she had rowed on it. It seemed in pretty good condition and it felt really smooth - smoother than the model C that I use at my health club. I wasn't really sure what to look for though when evaluating it - the bungee was a little "fuzzy" but seemed intact. At first one couldn't read the monitor when trying to set time/distance (only parts of the numbers showed) but then she put in some new batteries and it did work.

She wanted $250 but was willing to go down to $200. I wasn't sure at that price. I'd been thinking $100 and maybe $150. I was a little insecure that I might be missing something in looking the erg over and I'm a little confused about the value of a model B.

[PaulS]

Get your best price, but do it before someone who knows does.

You can replace the Monitor with something more current and have a machine that will last you a very long time. As long as the handle returns to the cage under the bungee tension (and that could be adjusted easily anyway) the fuzziness is nothing to worry about, a new bungee will fuzz up in a few months and remain in that condition for years.

[dazzlindino]

So what is the difference in having the window open or closed as in drag factor?
Obviously closed makes it easier to pull, is that cheating when it comes to trying a max effort 2k?
Thanks, Dazz