Running Rowing Combo

[Englishman116]

I've recently started running 3 times a week. At first I was really sore but now my body has adjusted to it. Is there any evidence of running benefitting your erg strength? I've noticed I can hold a 177 average heart rate for 45 minutes while running, which is about 10 beats faster than I can average while rowing for the same amount of time. At the same time, it's not erging... so should I just substitute the runs for steady-state erging if I want to better my times?

[Francois]

I've recently started running 3 times a week. At first I was really sore but now my body has adjusted to it. Is there any evidence of running benefitting your erg strength? I've noticed I can hold a 177 average heart rate for 45 minutes while running, which is about 10 beats faster than I can average while rowing for the same amount of time. At the same time, it's not erging... so should I just substitute the runs for steady-state erging if I want to better my times?

The difference in heart rate is due to the standing positions in running versus the sitting position in rowing. For swimming, it would be even lower.

Does running benefits erging? It depends on the fitness level already achieved. Someone with a low fitness level will see great improvements by doing any aerobic exercises, and this will have a positive impact on erg scores. As fitness improves there is diminishing gains to cross-training, and it becomes more productive to concentrate on the sport you want to excel at.

In my opinion, there is no substitute to the long steady erg sessions. Running doesn't do anything to the upper body strength needed for rowing. In fact, depending on your physiology, running at high intensity three times a week could accelerate the loss of upper body muscular mass, as compared to doing nothing! There is also a limit to how many quality training sessions one can do in a week. If improving erg scores is the goal, then most of those quality sessions should be done on the erg.

As you see, the answer to your question depends on your current fitness level and your goals.

Francois

[johnlvs2run]

Cardiac output is the heart rate times stroke volume.

CO = HR x SV

If your HR is less, then your CO is less unless your SV is increased.

But there is no difference in SV between upright, sitting, or prone positions.

My max heart rate is the same on the erg as with running, though it took getting used to the training on the erg.
At the beginning my max was 164 on the erg, then with training it got to 174 the same as with running.

If your max heart rate is not as high on the erg then it probably means you are not as used to the exercise and haven't developed
your muscles for getting your heart rate as high on the erg, and/or you are not used to running so naturally your heart rate will be higher.

But it doesn't have anything to do with the upright or sitting positions.

[Francois]

Hi John,

You are quite right regarding max HR.
What I meant, more specifically, in my previous post was that the HR at lactate threshold (LTHR) differs depending on the sport, based on body position (among possibly other factors). Typically for triathletes LTHR is highest for running and lowest for swimming, with cycling in between (Joe Friel, The triathlete's Training Bible).
This has been my experience as a multi-sport athlete that for a given perceived exertion level my HR is higher when running than it is when erging, and it is still lower when swimming (even though I am a better swimmer than runner!). Put it another way, it seems easier to maintain say 85% of Max HR while running, than it is while erging or swimming. That is precisely what the OP is experiencing whith his runnig and erging.

All the best,

Francois

[johnlvs2run]

for a given perceived exertion level my HR is higher when running than it is when erging, and it is still lower when swimming (even though I am a better swimmer than runner!). Put it another way, it seems easier to maintain say 85% of Max HR while running, than it is while erging or swimming.

Yes, it is easier for me to get my heart rate up while running. A 130 heart rate is more of an effort on the erg, whereas I'd be running very easily at this rate, and cycling would be going relatively hard - though I've reached the same HR max with all three.

I think this has to do with the movement involved. There is much more body movement with running, arms, torso, especially the legs; and only the legs in a small circle with cycling.

[Francois]

Speaking of running, I am just back from a 12K run. The temperature was 90 ˚F with humidity at 74%. I weigh myself before the run at 156.0 lbs. When I came back I was 152.5 lbs!

[RowtheRockies]

Francois,

That's quite a bit of fluid loss over that distance.

in 2001 I did the Pikes Peak Marathon. Was 170 in the morning and 161 when I got back to my house hours later. And that was after 2 IV bags and sipping a quart and a half of Gatorade! I have never felt so sick after a race for so long.

Rich

[Francois]

Rich,

What you did in 2001 was extremely dangerous!

I felt that I was safe today since I was well hydrated before leaving the house; I thought I would loose at most 1 litre of water; so I underestimated how much I would sweat.
Most of the time a carry a 1.5 litre camel back when it is that hot and humid.
I ended up at the emergency once, because of severe dehydration! I try to be a little more careful now.

Are you still running these days?

Francois

[RowtheRockies]

Francois,

I know losing that much fluid is very dangerous. Probably explains blacking out just after crossing the line and waking up in medical tent with IV in. The thing about this race is that you can't just quit. It starts at 6,800 ft. and half way point is 14,100+ feet. There are no roads and thus no support vehicles to take you back other than your own two legs.

I carried a water bottle and drank very often and refilled at the 5 different water stops along the way. I sweat a lot more than anybody I have ever met and just can not replace fluids fast enough in an event of this duration. That is why I oly did the Marathon Once. I have done the Ascent (bottom to top 13.1 miles only) 6 times without problem.

After dealing with back problems (L5/S1 disc) The last 2.5 years I finally came to the realization in February that my days of running are probably over. Good thing I have the erg!

Rich

[Byron Drachman]

I also get different max. heart rates for different activities. I can get about 10 bpm higher on a stair stepper than I can rowing. From

http://home.hia.no/%7Estephens/hrchngs.htm

Your Maximal heart Rate Differs in Different Activities. Cardiac hemodynamics and maximal sympathetic drive are influenced by 1) body position during exercise and 2) muscle mass involvement. So, a triathlete with a max heart rate during running of 180, may only hit 176 on the bike, and 171 during swimming. In this case we call the running heart rate "Maximal Heart Rate" and the highest heart rate observed in cycling and swimming, "Peak" heart rate, for that event. Knowing your peak heart rate for each discipline will help you to more accurately guage the intensity of your training. If the activity is restricted to upper-body muscle mass, peak heart rate will generally be considerably lower than in whole body activities. Examples include kayaking and double poling during cross-country skiing. Highly trained athletes can achieve a higher percentage of true max heart rate when performing small muscle mass activities.

[BobD]

People tend to forget that when running, you are lifting your entire body weight into the air, this is why most studies show running as burning more calories per hour than any other sport, i.e. you are working harder.

See this: http://www.nutristrategy.com/activitylist4.htm

[Nosmo]

People tend to forget that when running, you are lifting your entire body weight into the air, this is why most studies show running as burning more calories per hour than any other sport, i.e. you are working harder.

See this: http://www.nutristrategy.com/activitylist4.htm

Frankly I don't believe I burn more calories running then rowing. At least not if I'm rowing hard. Racing for an hour on a bike, rowing, running, or cross country skiing, I'd bet give pretty similar numbers for someone who is trained in each sport. I'd bet cross country skiing and rowing give slightly higher numbers then running.

[johnlvs2run]

I used to lose about 3 pounds from a 10 mile training run. beginning at 138 pounds.

I think the difference was 7 pounds for a 20 mile training run, i.e. ~ 7:10 per mile.
This was in Los Angeles where it was usually warm.
Sometimes I ran with a long sleeve windbreaker to get used to the heat.

In 1978 I was 4th in a marathon where it was 98 degrees and not any water to speak of on the course. I'd passed a guy at 25 miles and had 20 yards when we went into the last 1/4 of a mile. I was keeping my ears and eyes open and well he had to start kicking, so I picked it up and the more I picked it up the harder he kicked. I was thinking oh s*** but kept the distance between us with knees flying high through the finish, wandered over, sat on the top of a picnic table and guzzled down a liter of liquid in a minute, another liter in a couple of minutes, and a 3rd in another 10-15 minutes. I didn't move from the table for at least 30 minutes lol. It was hot.

[BobD]

@Nosmo: Believing doesn't count I learned very early on, it doen't replace test and meaurement.

The link I sent is only one of many where the calory/hour consumption of various sports has been tested. Running and X-Country skiing always burn more than any other sport.

[Nosmo]

@Nosmo: Believing doesn't count I learned very early on, it doesn't replace test and meaurement.

I agree that believing doesn't replace test and measurement. But one has to know the test conditions and how they apply to a given individual in the real world, for the numbers to more then generally meaningful.

Two runners of the same weight and the same speed may burn vastly different numbers of calories per hour depending on how efficiently they run. For the link, what rowing machine did they use? What was the pace? Was the athlete tested a good rower?

How many Calories one can burn in an hour steady state has to do with how much oxygen one can utilize, which has to do with body position and the total amount of muscles used. One can get more oxygen to ones muscles in an upright position such as when running or cross country skiing then when cycling or rowing. Cross country skiing uses slightly more then running because it uses more of the body. But again this all depends to some extent on the individual. This has nothing to do with how much an individual moves up and down when running.

At one point when I was running and rowing, I was capable of running a 5:30 mile for an hour and erging around 1:56 for an hour. At that time I may have been burning more calories running then rowing. Now I can still do a 1:56 on the erg for an hour, but I since I don't run I doubt could do under 7:30 minute miles running without a lot of training, and there is no way I'll get to 5:30 pace (I am about 8 lbs heavier) Edit: the link shows running a 5:30 mile to consume 50% more calories then very vigorous rowing.