Wolverine....or just erg hard....always.

[mikvan52]

Yawn: .... another tiresome recapitulation of the flame wars of the past.... but it is entertaining...........

Conclusions?

IMHO: ranger is a fast erger; he has beaten many people a couple of times; now he's taken on a formidable contestant: Father Time............ it won't work........... => Dehydrated 58 year old "lightweights" do not and will not pull 6:16 for 2k.


"rowing well" : What does rowing well mean with the erg anyway? Does it mean getting a faster time by means of any kinesiological technique (aka chain jerking)?
I'm not being snide: Any fast erg time by any means is fine... it just depends on what your goals are ... and that's up to the individual ... not any one of us pontificating about form.
I've watched a fair amt. of rowing and erging in 40 years... there's all kind of rowing out there, producing all kinds of results... each of us makes choices of how to get to a finish line. Some "finish lines" don't even involve competition. That, too, is a matter of personal choice.

BTW: Rowers of all ages get better at it (rowing, that is)... It may not mean better times at 2k but there are other measures of quality rowing.

Perhaps such topics aren't appropriate for a group of older men concerned about prowess as measured by speed over 2k or the FM.

BTW (deux): I just set my PB at 60 minutes a couple of days ago at the 60 min. mark (brag - brag) Maybe this is just another example of an older gent trying to avoid the 2k so.... I won't characterize it as "rowing well".....also we should keep it mind that most of the world would think of a person who sits on the erg for an hour as "rowing sicko"

[ranger]

"rowing well" : What does rowing well mean with the erg anyway?

13-15 SPI for lightweights.

16-18 SPI for heavyweights.

ranger

[PaulS]

Ha! A Hatrick for me... 3 Ranger responses, encompassing at least 20x the words I used in a single factual post.

Rich, go ahead and stay in your hole!

Oh, and don't flatter yourself by refering to yourself as "my competition".

That's similar in hubris to the amorous ant climbing the cows leg, and assuring her that he will be gentle.

[mikvan52]

"rowing well" : What does rowing well mean with the erg anyway?

13-15 SPI for lightweights.

16-18 SPI for heavyweights.

ranger

SPI for what distances...
Oh, I forgot, distance doesn't matter when "you're rowing well"

ranger:What's your expert analysis of this:

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/blog.ph ... 97#replies



It's 10.1 SPI and it's the best 55-59 lwt hour row on record at the C2 ranking site.....
Would I have to drop my rate to get the "right" spi score

[ranger]

"rowing well" : What does rowing well mean with the erg anyway?

13-15 SPI for lightweights.

16-18 SPI for heavyweights.

ranger

SPI for what distances...
Oh, I forgot, distance doesn't matter when "you're rowing well"

ranger:What's your expert analysis of this:

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/blog.ph ... 97#replies



It's 10.1 SPI and it's the best 55-59 lwt hour row on record at the C2 ranking site.....
Would I have to drop my rate to get the "right" spi score

Yes, historically, pulling 10 SPI is very good stroking for a 55s rower.

60s rowers usually pull at about 70% of what a young athlete can do.

13 SPI becomes 9 SPI.

I am exactly challenging this historical trend, claiming that traditional modes of training have encouraged this breakdown in technique, when, IMHO, it is not necessary at all.

Older rowers lose aerobic capacity, quite a bit, but they don't have to lose any strength at all.

And there is no reason why an older rower can't be as technically proficient as a younger rower.

The older rower just has to maintain good agility, rhythmicity, posture, quickness, timing, flexibility, etc.

Given that, historically, 60s rowers usually pull only 70% of what younger rowers do, it would indeed be remarkable if a 60s rower could do _any_ event at the same level as a younger rower.

That is, it would be remarkable if a 60s rower could set an Open WR.

If I can do a FM @ 1:48, I would come close to doing just that.

Cool!

BTW, I'll row the FM at 13 SPI: 1:48 @ 21 spm

70% is right about the difference between 2:00 pace (200 watts) and 1:48 pace (278 watts).

The 60s lwt WR for the FM is right around 2:00 pace (2:48).

1:48 for a FM is 2:32, 16 _minutes_ faster than that.

ranger

[ranger]

Dehydrated 58 year old "lightweights" do not and will not pull 6:16 for 2k.

True.

Things that have never been done before are never done until they are done.

Then again, tautologies are the most tiresome things of all.

Why keep repeating them?

Nay-sayers are bone-heads.

In the arts, unexpected things happen all the time.

Those who think otherwise are fools.

Why join the other numbskulls around here in such tautological blather?

You're better than that!

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

To pull 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI) with good form, you need to be comfortable and natural with about 110 kgs. of peak pressure, though, and I suspect that this is your problem, just as it was mine five years ago.

Give or take a bit, I used to pull only 80 kgs. of peak pressure.

I didn't use my legs enough. I was slow at the catch. I didn't delay my back. I didn't drive with my hips. I didn't finish completely with my arms. I didn't recover quickly. I didn't prepare adequately on the recovery. I didn't control the slide. I didn't keep a good ratio.

The way to get beyond this problem is to drop everything and row perfectly (15 SPI) for a few years.

As you do this rowing, you will improve your technique.

You will no longer row like shit.

Then come back to rowing well (13 SPI) and see how it feels.

I think you'll find what I have found.

Once you improve your technique, it's no problem at all.

(But, of course, if you never improve your technique, it will always seem impossible.)

You are punishing yourself!

No need to do this.

Time to see the light!

I now pull 1:48 @ 21 spm (13 SPI), easy as pie.

Can't do anything else.

13 SPI is now just my natural stroke.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Rich:
I apologize for be tautological.

Will you now apologize for your generally insulting manner too?

=<>=<>=<>=<>=

Other unfinished business:
My Question: "Is high SPI (aka ranger's most excellent rowing) theoretical only?"
Are there large numbers of lightweight rowers who pull any substantial distance at 13+ SPI.....?

Let me answer for you... "NO"

Haven't you found from your training and racing experiments that such technique does indeed keep you strong but OTOH it prevents you from winning races or setting a single top mark in your age/weight group?

Remember this?=====>
From last year:

Actual numbers: Stroke Power Index for Winners of 2007 Races

WIRC 2007

Example
http://www.concept2.co.uk/wirc/race_ana ... sen&race=3
Henrik Stephansen: 1:31.7 per 500/ 43 spm ….open lwt…6:06.6 = 10.56 SPI
WIRC 2007 (winner of lightweights)


Example
http://www.concept2.co.uk/wirc/race_ana ... race=7&w=l
Peter Ording: 1:33.9/36 6:15.4 …. 30-39 lwt…= 11.74 SPI


Example
http://www.concept2.co.uk/wirc/race_ana ... race=9&w=l
Paul Siebach: 1:36.1 / 37…..6:24.2…..40-49 lwt…= 10.66 SPI

[ranger]

Are there large numbers of lightweight rowers who pull any substantial distance at 13+ SPI.....?

Yes.

Lots.

They're pretty good, though.

13 SPI @ 36 spm is the Open lwt WR.

ranger

[ranger]

Will you now apologize for your generally insulting manner too?

No.

I like banter.

Trash talk is fun.

Get in the spirit, Mike.

ranger

[ranger]

Mike--

Try to trade rate for pace if you want.

The problem is: given your age, you can no longer do it.

Why keep trying to do something you can't do?

Not very smart.

You can't row 40 spm at 11 SPI for 2k.

Hey, if you could, I'd say, "Be my guest."

But you can only row 30 spm @ 11 SPI for 2K.

That's a _low_ rate for a 2K, Mike, not a high rate.

And if you are going to row at a low rate, you might as well row well, rather than like shit.

Take good strokes.

For a lightweight, rowing well is 13 SPI.

ranger

[Yankeerunner]

The problem is: given your age, you can no longer do it.

Why keep trying to do something you can't do?

Not very smart.

ranger

When you're not being Horizon Man you can call yourself Iron(y) Man.

[ranger]

The problem is: given your age, you can no longer do it.

Why keep trying to do something you can't do?

Not very smart.

ranger

When you're not being Horizon Man you can call yourself Iron(y) Man.

It's ironic to lower the rate when you are old and therefore have reduced aerobic capacity?

How so?

Sounds _very_ reasonable to me.

It is also reasonable to take good strokes, if you can.

I guess I fail to see the irony.

Older rowers necessarily lose aerobic capacity, but they don't lose technical competence, and if they work at it, they don't have to lose strength, at least lightweights don't.

I am just as strong as I was when I was 20.

ranger

[mikvan52]

Are there large numbers of lightweight rowers who pull any substantial distance at 13+ SPI.....?

Yes.

Lots.

They're pretty good, though.

13 SPI @ 36 spm is the Open lwt WR.

ranger

Correction:
40 spm

yankeerunner, Roy, and I were there watching...

Question: "Lots" (?) ... not specific enough for verification.

[mikvan52]

Here you go again.
Your rhetorical technique remains to counter challenges to your assertions by asking what the challenger does on the erg.
Don't you see the flaw in that line of "reasoning"

Mike--

Try to trade rate for pace if you want.

The problem is: given your age, you can no longer do it.

Why keep trying to do something you can't do?

Not very smart.

You can't row 40 spm at 11 SPI for 2k.

Hey, if you could, I'd say, "Be my guest."

But you can only row 30 spm @ 11 SPI for 2K.

That's a _low_ rate for a 2K, Mike, not a high rate.

And if you are going to row at a low rate, you might as well row well, rather than like shit.

Take good strokes.

For a lightweight, rowing well is 13 SPI.

ranger

Your preference for the word "shit" seems to indicate that you never got out of the Ka-Ka stage of emotional development when you were young.

Ever consider growing up?

And, again, you're wrong about a performance: the one you refer to above:

I'm not particularly proud of it but my 6:45.1 2k was rowed as follows:

1st 500: 28 spm
2nd.....: 30-32
3rd......: 34-36
4th......: 39 spm

How do get 30 spm avg out of that?
In competition: Champion rowers go for the finish line and not for SPI.... you might have noticed.

The other day I rowed a 30' piece at an 18. That yielded a higher SPI...(see my blog for details) good training admittedly... but it's only a part of a more comprehensive training program.