Concept2 Forum

I've been reading about tabata intervals, which seem to challenge the conventional wisdom regarding intervals. Are they more effective for weight loss than conventional intervals with longer recoveries? Or are their real benefits for improving speed performance.

Right now, I'm rowing about 25k a week, running about 15 miles per week, swimming 1-2 miles a week, doing maybe an hour or two on the stationary bike, and maybe two short sessions of strength training per week.

My fitness goals, in this order are:

1) Lose 15 more pounds to get back to my ideal weight.
2) Complete a couple of half marathons and a run/bike/kayak tri this year.
3) Improve my rowing times (distant third in terms of priority).

When spring arrives, I'll be increasing my running and biking, getting back in the kayak, and the ergng and swimming will be reduced until next fall.

Are there any benefits to adding tabatas to my rowing for the next two months? Or should I just stick with more conventional interval training?

If I understand correctly, the Tabata Interval is a 20 second max output, followed by 10 seconds of rest.

This is a really aggressive workout. I read a study a couple of years ago, granted it was conducted on soccer players, but the gist of it was that the scientists looked at how to increase Vo2Max the fastest in pre season professional soccer players. I think they conducted the study for Chelsea FC in London. What they found was that to increase Vo2 Max the fastest, you needed a 2:1 rest to work ratio and they developed a drill to have the players run up and back 30 m each way in 10 seconds and rest for 20. So this is the exact opposite of the Tabata drill in terms of rest and work.

Even so, the principle is the same. In the soccer drill the output over 60 m is quite tough even at 70 or 80% as you repeat. So if your objective is VO2Max, then this makes sense even for rowing, but if the object is strength building, then the reverse makes sense to me (2:1 work to rest).

My 2 cents

Neil

nchasan wrote:the Tabata Interval is a 20 second max output, followed by 10 seconds of rest.

So I did this workout today and it totally kicked my butt. Granted I had just finished a 5K and after five minutes I hit the 20/10 drill.

I pulled 1:40's each time, and what I found is that by the third rep I was baked. I mean stick a fork in me baked. I think this will be an interesting way to end workouts, so I am going to try to do 3-5 of these sprints at the end of each set to see how this develops my strength. I'll keep ya posted.

N

Cazneau - I'm not sure if Tabatas are more effective for weight loss than regular interval training. In my experience adding Tabatas to a regular workout does help with weight control, and I find it easier to talk myself into 8 reps of 20 seconds than 8 reps of 500m.

Neil - I think you will want to do a cool down row after the Tabatas, especially if you do them regularly. I think it's good for you, but more to the point, it feels really good. The first 1000m are tough, but eventually I reach a point where I don't want to stop.

M. Podolsky wrote:The first 1000m are tough, but eventually I reach a point where I don't want to stop.

So I have a question for you. I noticed that after the third event I was deeply in EPOC (excess post exercise oxygen consumption) and also muscularly fatigued since I really went all out each 20 seconds. It seems to me, based on my limited experience with this workout and with sprinting in general, that your output would drop off dramatically after say 5 or 6 repetitions because of a. EPOC, b. Laticic acid accumulation and c. Fatigue

My sense is that if you can do 20 on 10 off repetitively for more than 10 cycles, that you are not actually working at all out maximal effort. What is your sense of your output with each repetition compared to your all out maximum effort?

Thanks

Neil

nchasan wrote:My sense is that if you can do 20 on 10 off repetitively for more than 10 cycles, that you are not actually working at all out maximal effort. What is your sense of your output with each repetition compared to your all out maximum effort?

The first time I tried a Tabata session I went all out (first rep 441Watts) and had to quit after the 4th rep. The next time I backed off just enough that I was able to complete the 8th rep (first rep 394Watts), but couldn't have done another. My power always falls with each interval, so there's probably a decent window of starting effort that will let you complete 8 reps (eg if I start with sub-optimal power the drop will be less drastic). I think the protocol talks about a maximal effort over the 8 reps, and not a maximal effort repeated 8 times.

When I said the first 1000m are tough, I meant the first 1000m of a steady state cool down after the Tabatas. Yesterday I did a 10.5km 40 minute warmup, 8 reps of 20s hard 10s rest, and finally a 5km 21 minute cool down. Because the Tabatas were done after 40 minutes of reasonably hard work, the power dropped from 394W in the first rep to 319W by the 7th and 8th reps. I intended to do a 4km cool down, and in the first few minutes I even thought about reducing it to 2km, but that good feeling kicked in and I ended up doing an extra 1000m. It's a nice way to finish a workout.

M. Podolsky wrote:I think the protocol talks about a maximal effort over the 8 reps, and not a maximal effort repeated 8 times.

OK, that makes more sense to me. Do you you have a link for the protocol? I have only seen mention of the 20 on vs 10 off cycle..thanks

Neil

I started a Tabata thread on the UK forum back in November. You may find some of the information useful.

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=17935

M. Podolsky wrote:I started a Tabata thread on the UK forum back in November. You may find some of the information useful.

http://www.concept2.co.uk/forum/viewtop ... =4&t=17935

thanks again...


very interesting

N

My impression was that Tabata intervals-- that particular variant of HIIT-- burned more fat (supposedly) than steady state. In the original experiment the HIIT group and the steady state group lost ~the same amount of weight, but the Tabata interval group reduced body fat more and muscle mass less. So that would be a good result!

This is all a bit off the top of my head, from reading a summary of the study six months back or so.

When I first heard the buzz about this Tabata thing, I searched the literature and did not find the level of replication of the results that would have made me feel confident. So I'm a wee bit dubious, just a little tiny wee bit. Obviously exercising full out with short rest intervals will kick your butt, but as to the particular benefits I'd like more science less buzz.

It's got a bit of that supermarket tabloid Celebrity Miracle Training Secret aura about it. You know -- The Four Minute Workout That Will Change Your Life. That sort of thing.

I'll look today again an see how often Dr Tabata is cited in the literature. Maybe my original look was too cursory.

SkipChurch wrote:
It's got a bit of that supermarket tabloid Celebrity Miracle Training Secret aura about it. You know -- The Four Minute Workout That Will Change Your Life. That sort of thing.

In my clinic we have metabolic technology that allows us to measure output during exercise. I have not been able to figure out how to do so accurately on the ERG (too many variables), but on a stepper we have that allows short bout exercise, I have measure the metabolic impact of short bout high intensity exercise in a 20 seconds on 20 seconds off paradigm for one minute of exercise, followed by 10 minutes of recovery, and what I found was that the metabolic consequence of one minute of short bout maximum output exercise performed 6 times a day produced a 1000 cal per day expenditure.

so, when coupled with a longer duration fat burning workout to improve oxygen capacity, the two together provide the best long term outcome.

N

I looked over Dr Izumi Tabata's publications and read a few of the more interesting abstracts and two off the full-text articles I could access through the library at work. You can get a pretty good overview by searching TABATA, IZUMI in Google Scholar.

Here is a typical sample:
"Effects of moderate-intensity endurance and high-intensity intermittent training on anaerobic capacity and ˙VO2max "
[Applied Sciences: Physical Fitness and Performance]

...
"In conclusion, this study showed that moderate-intensity aerobic training that improves the maximal aerobic power does not change anaerobic capacity and that adequate high-intensity intermittent training may improve both anaerobic and aerobic energy supplying systems significantly, probably through imposing intensive stimuli on both systems."

There are not very many recent articles, and few in top-tier journals (which is the unhappy fate of many sports medicine physiologists), and of course the work with human subjects has relatively low Ns and other inherent problems. BUT still...the results are interesting as far as they go, if hardly new. Coaches have known, and physiologists have demonstrated, that HIIT improves acidosis tolerance with resultant enhancement of athletic performance.

So good.

As for miracle training secrets, did I mention the high dose of caffeine and four Tums antacids?

SkipChurch wrote:There are not very many recent articles, and few in top-tier journals (which is the unhappy fate of many sports medicine physiologists),

here are a few references for you...happy to discuss them individually or as a group..

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