some Qs from newb

[p12]

Hi all,

First this, this forum was absolute treasure for me last 2 weeks and Id like to thank to all posters for their effort in building this knowledge pool.


I got my C2 ten days ago, M36 116 kg 182cm, started eat smart and workout after 10 years of sedentary job and sedentary life with zero training.
Getting more and more familiarized with rower and working on technique ( I will upload formcheck in few days).

1.
After reading a lot about HR and zones, I still cant get right HR zones for my sessions.

Here is 2k I rowed yesterday 1 min after rowing 5k on 2.31 with 151 beats:

8:53.7 2,000m 2:13.4 147 807 29 174
2:11.7 500m 2:11.7 153 827 29 169
2:17.4 1,000m 2:17.4 135 764 28 171
2:17.2 1,500m 2:17.2 136 766 28 174
2:07.3 2,000m 2:07.3 170 883 30 182

It was not my max effort, so I had some reserve at the end still, can I approximate my MHR from this(185-190 my guess)?

2.
I am adding minute every day to my long rows and intend to do that for two months, to build aerobic cap and take as much as possible fat off before starting with pete plan or something like that.
I can get my workout in with two ways with similar beats, dont know which stroke rate is better, here are two sessions

A)
35:00.0 7,052m 2:28.8 106 664 23 154
7:00.0 1,418m 2:28.0 108 670 23 150
14:00.0 1,398m 2:30.2 103 655 22 148
21:00.0 1,395m 2:30.5 103 653 22 150
28:00.0 1,390m 2:31.0 101 649 23 154
35:00.0 1,451m 2:24.7 115 697 24 171


34:00.0 6,775m 2:30.5 103 652 18 155
7:00.0 1,418m 2:28.0 108 670 18 148
14:00.0 1,411m 2:28.8 106 665 18 154
21:00.0 1,391m 2:30.9 102 650 18 153
28:00.0 1,358m 2:34.6 95 625 18 150
34:00.0 1,197m 2:30.3 103 654 19 170

3. Now about wattage, after I was reading about watts and and watts per stroke, I am confused and dont know how to procced. I tried to make long strokes with strong pushoff with legs and that got me in zone 4-5 pretty fast

30:00.0 6,308m 2:22.6 121 714 15 171
6:00.0 1,267m 2:22.0 122 720 17 154
12:00.0 1,221m 2:27.4 109 675 15 164
18:00.0 1,275m 2:21.1 124 728 15 174
24:00.0 1,271m 2:21.6 123 724 15 181
30:00.0 1,275m 2:21.1 124 728 15 186

should I just forget about wattage and go by HR in every session?


sorry for bad english

[Tony Cook]

Hi p12, and welcome.
Someone a lot more technical than me will be along soon but at your stage if your goal is to burn fat while gaining base fitness and improving technique then keep it simple. There are various ways of estimating your MHR but you won’t be too far off with the simple 220-your age - so for you that’s 184.
Concentrate on long rows as you are, gradually increasing to an hour + with a HR of 60-70% of your MHR = 110-129 BPM.
Within that you can experiment with stroke rate but mainly keep it low 18-22.
Good luck and keep us updates.

[Ombrax]

Hi p12, and welcome to the forum.

I think that in general a stroke rate of 18-19 is a bit low.

Many newbies actually end up rowing at too high a SR, somewhere in the upper 20's.
I'd say that for someone in your position 20-25 would be just about right.

You don't want to use too high a SR, because you want to work on developing a powerful stroke, and you don't want to waste energy zipping up and down the slide. High stroke rates allow you to put out more horsepower with less force (same thing as in the equation for a motor's HP) but unless you're racing or going for a personal best (in which case you can go crazy and give it all you have) for general training you want to use a more moderate rate.

Good Luck

I can get my workout in with two ways with similar beats, dont know which stroke rate is better, here are two sessions

A)
35:00.0 7,052m 2:28.8 106 664 23 154
7:00.0 1,418m 2:28.0 108 670 23 150
14:00.0 1,398m 2:30.2 103 655 22 148
21:00.0 1,395m 2:30.5 103 653 22 150
28:00.0 1,390m 2:31.0 101 649 23 154
35:00.0 1,451m 2:24.7 115 697 24 171


34:00.0 6,775m 2:30.5 103 652 18 155
7:00.0 1,418m 2:28.0 108 670 18 148
14:00.0 1,411m 2:28.8 106 665 18 154
21:00.0 1,391m 2:30.9 102 650 18 153
28:00.0 1,358m 2:34.6 95 625 18 150
34:00.0 1,197m 2:30.3 103 654 19 170

[Allan Olesen]

3. Now about wattage, after I was reading about watts and and watts per stroke, I am confused and dont know how to procced. I tried to make long strokes with strong pushoff with legs and that got me in zone 4-5 pretty fast

As far as I can see, your pace got you in zone 4-5.

You increased your stroke energy more than you reduced your stroke rate. End result was a faster pace = a higher effort. Which resulted in a higher heart rate.

Next time you work on a stronger stroke, try to maintain your pace at the same 2:30 as you did in your other long sessions. You can do this either by not making your stroke that much stronger or by slowing the recovery down so you get an even slower stroke rate. I would probably prefer the former.

[iain]

Hi P12 and congratulations on a great start. I am no great expert, but a few comments that occur to me:

1. Increasing for 2 months at 1 min per day will put you at 90 min rows. While not impossible to maintain, that is a huge amount of distance. On very long rows it is easy to slip into bad habits so you would need to pay close attention to your stroke. Also it would probably be best to break down into 2-3 rows with 1-2 mins between so you can sta hydrated and stretch.

2. Stroke rate is not something people agree upon. Nothing wrong with SR of 18-19 for longer steady rows so long as you aren't achieving this with an inefficient stroke (eg excessive leanback) and there should be no point where you are stationary (ie achieved by slowing the slide back up to the catch).

3. Powerful strokes are tiring so for 30 min you should not be doing maximal strokes, so if developing / improving your stroke, concentrate on feeling the increased power, especially in the leg drive.

4. You are already doing suffucient distance to start the PP or BPP. Fine if you would rather increase your base fitness first, but these plans should not themselves put you off. If moving to full PP, the key is the starting pace. I used this to come back after not rowing for 3 years, but I took the suggested initial paces seriously. So 20 min pace for short intervals and initially only slightly faster than long rows for long intervals (they were longer than the steady rows at the time). Try and keep the long rows as a minimum of 30 min and build up to 10k if necessary over several weeks. Also add rest days when needed, no need for a cycle to only last 3 weks, better not to omit rows (although the long hard row is optional).

5. Re maximum HR, I would err on the side of caution. You have seen 186, why not use that until you see higher. Personally I think HRR is a better way of regulating HR, particularly for lower paces. So regulate % of (maxHR-resting HR).

6. Personally I try not to slow on rows, so if I can't stay in the HR zone, next time I start slower. It builds resolve and the staying power necessary!

[max_ratcliffe]

Hi P12 and congratulations on a great start. I am no great expert, but a few comments that occur to me:

1. Increasing for 2 months at 1 min per day will put you at 90 min rows. While not impossible to maintain, that is a huge amount of distance. On very long rows it is easy to slip into bad habits so you would need to pay close attention to your stroke. Also it would probably be best to break down into 2-3 rows with 1-2 mins between so you can sta hydrated and stretch.

<>

Some very good comments here Iain.

If we assume that the OP meant that the long rows increase by 1min every day that a long row is done (rather than every day of the week) and three long rows per week are done, then everything will become much more sustainable. Three hour-long rows per week at the end of a two-month long ramping up period looks good.

I also agree with the idea of breaking them up into chunks for back health and hydration.

[p12]

3. Now about wattage, after I was reading about watts and and watts per stroke, I am confused and dont know how to procced. I tried to make long strokes with strong pushoff with legs and that got me in zone 4-5 pretty fast

As far as I can see, your pace got you in zone 4-5.

You increased your stroke energy more than you reduced your stroke rate. End result was a faster pace = a higher effort. Which resulted in a higher heart rate.

Next time you work on a stronger stroke, try to maintain your pace at the same 2:30 as you did in your other long sessions. You can do this either by not making your stroke that much stronger or by slowing the recovery down so you get an even slower stroke rate. I would probably prefer the former.

thanks for answer, would you recommend put daily up to one hour with 2.30 pace or up to 2 hours with 2.50 pace and below 140 hr, I would prefer taking absolute minimum days off

[p12]

Hi P12 and congratulations on a great start. I am no great expert, but a few comments that occur to me:

1. Increasing for 2 months at 1 min per day will put you at 90 min rows. While not impossible to maintain, that is a huge amount of distance. On very long rows it is easy to slip into bad habits so you would need to pay close attention to your stroke. Also it would probably be best to break down into 2-3 rows with 1-2 mins between so you can sta hydrated and stretch.

2. Stroke rate is not something people agree upon. Nothing wrong with SR of 18-19 for longer steady rows so long as you aren't achieving this with an inefficient stroke (eg excessive leanback) and there should be no point where you are stationary (ie achieved by slowing the slide back up to the catch).

3. Powerful strokes are tiring so for 30 min you should not be doing maximal strokes, so if developing / improving your stroke, concentrate on feeling the increased power, especially in the leg drive.

4. You are already doing suffucient distance to start the PP or BPP. Fine if you would rather increase your base fitness first, but these plans should not themselves put you off. If moving to full PP, the key is the starting pace. I used this to come back after not rowing for 3 years, but I took the suggested initial paces seriously. So 20 min pace for short intervals and initially only slightly faster than long rows for long intervals (they were longer than the steady rows at the time). Try and keep the long rows as a minimum of 30 min and build up to 10k if necessary over several weeks. Also add rest days when needed, no need for a cycle to only last 3 weks, better not to omit rows (although the long hard row is optional).

5. Re maximum HR, I would err on the side of caution. You have seen 186, why not use that until you see higher. Personally I think HRR is a better way of regulating HR, particularly for lower paces. So regulate % of (maxHR-resting HR).

6. Personally I try not to slow on rows, so if I can't stay in the HR zone, next time I start slower. It builds resolve and the staying power necessary!

Im still undecided whether to go full MAF or doing PP, I have tried few sessions with MAF (140hrmax)and that got me to 2.50 pace and this way I feel I can go for long time without getting tired and no need to recovery at all, its much less pleasing rowing this way but if result would be better no problem. Nr. 1 priority for me right now is to get endurance.
Any suggestions about best training for me would be appreciated.

[MiddleAgeCRISIS]

Hi P12 and congratulations on a great start. I am no great expert, but a few comments that occur to me:

1. Increasing for 2 months at 1 min per day will put you at 90 min rows. While not impossible to maintain, that is a huge amount of distance. On very long rows it is easy to slip into bad habits so you would need to pay close attention to your stroke. Also it would probably be best to break down into 2-3 rows with 1-2 mins between so you can sta hydrated and stretch.

2. Stroke rate is not something people agree upon. Nothing wrong with SR of 18-19 for longer steady rows so long as you aren't achieving this with an inefficient stroke (eg excessive leanback) and there should be no point where you are stationary (ie achieved by slowing the slide back up to the catch).

3. Powerful strokes are tiring so for 30 min you should not be doing maximal strokes, so if developing / improving your stroke, concentrate on feeling the increased power, especially in the leg drive.

4. You are already doing suffucient distance to start the PP or BPP. Fine if you would rather increase your base fitness first, but these plans should not themselves put you off. If moving to full PP, the key is the starting pace. I used this to come back after not rowing for 3 years, but I took the suggested initial paces seriously. So 20 min pace for short intervals and initially only slightly faster than long rows for long intervals (they were longer than the steady rows at the time). Try and keep the long rows as a minimum of 30 min and build up to 10k if necessary over several weeks. Also add rest days when needed, no need for a cycle to only last 3 weks, better not to omit rows (although the long hard row is optional).

5. Re maximum HR, I would err on the side of caution. You have seen 186, why not use that until you see higher. Personally I think HRR is a better way of regulating HR, particularly for lower paces. So regulate % of (maxHR-resting HR).

6. Personally I try not to slow on rows, so if I can't stay in the HR zone, next time I start slower. It builds resolve and the staying power necessary!

Im still undecided whether to go full MAF or doing PP, I have tried few sessions with MAF (140hrmax)and that got me to 2.50 pace and this way I feel I can go for long time without getting tired and no need to recovery at all, its much less pleasing rowing this way but if result would be better no problem. Nr. 1 priority for me right now is to get endurance.
Any suggestions about best training for me would be appreciated.

I started rowing 100 days ago , each day i've done 20km. Some days 30km. I do 2 sets of 10km. i don't try hard at all.

Day 1 was an hour for 10km and my heart rate was 130 at 3 minute split.

I'm currently doing 10 km in 50 mins , heart rate 120bpm.

Every month i do a quick 5 km ( for me) just to see where i am.

I've lost 35lbs so far.

My logic is 1) duration will burn calories 2) intensity is low but will avoid injury ( further supporting volume) 3) my lack of effort should avoid bulking up.

The first month was physically painful , month 2 was also painful , i felt no positive benefits because the benefits of losing weight were offset by fatigue.

I've used a percussion massager to help recovery and worked to maintain suppleness. It has helped me rehab a knee injury which is great and after 2m metres I am now starting to notice better agility and feeling lighter.

I am evangelical about MAF albeit my version is a MAF lite version. Historically I would tend to sprint train and suffered by bulking up and becoming injured. In addition I have previously triggered gout by rapid weight loss plus dehydration and as such the low intensity work out and the lack of perspiration is a benefit.

I have gradually improved my technique as my body adapts. So initially my catch was bolt up right. My hip flexors took maybe 70 days to get use to it. Im now working on rocking back and getting my abs up to speed.

All the best.

[Allan Olesen]

thanks for answer, would you recommend put daily up to one hour with 2.30 pace or up to 2 hours with 2.50 pace and below 140 hr

There is a lot of discussion on whether easy can be too easy if the purpose is base fitness building. Personally, I think that as long as you produce the same amount of energy, it can't get too easy. But I am not really qualified to have an opinion.

What I can tell is this:
During 2 hours at 2:50 minutes/500 meter, you will produce 37% more energy, compared to doing 1 hour at 2:30.

Whether you will also burn 37% more energy is a question of your body's metabolic efficiency. I can't answer that. But I am pretty convinced that you will burn more.

[Dangerscouse]

thanks for answer, would you recommend put daily up to one hour with 2.30 pace or up to 2 hours with 2.50 pace and below 140 hr, I would prefer taking absolute minimum days off

As you're still a newbie stick with one hour as two hours will only give you more chance of injury as you get tired, and an hour is a better comparison for progress: less time for other factors to affect the result eg heat, dehydration, lack of sleep etc

The HR cap is a good idea and over time you will see your pace increase with a comparable HR. Just don't slavishly look at it for every session; always allow adjustments for external factors and take a view over about 4 or 5 sessions to start with. Some days it will be higher or lower so it can be misleading if you look too closely.

When you get more experienced, two hours will be an option but it's best to allow your body to gradually adapt rather than overload it. Without solid foundations you can't expect solid results