My attack plan

[maximoburrito]

It looks like my rower is set to arrive this Friday, so now is the time to start putting together my battle plan. I'd love to get some feedback from people here as a sanity check.

First, the background. I've gone from 330 to 250 over the last 2 years. Most of that has been in spurts, separated by months of treading water. I was introduce to rowing by a trainer (who I'll ultimately consult about my plan) about a year ago. Right now I probably row only 4 or 5 times a month. Sometimes that's just a 500m - 1000m row to warmup for the main workout. Othertimes, it's hard intervals or just short rows into a mixed routine. Since I've had a skilled trainer, I feel my form is OK. It's not great, but it's safe and effective enough for recreational purposes.

I'd like to give my weightloss a bit of a pickup by adding in 3-4 days of rowing. I've been trying to figure out what exactly to do, and I've been a bit confused by some of the suggestions. I found the "workout of the day" page on the concept 2 site, and I like the variety of the workouts there. I'm thinking about just randomly going through the various "weight control" workouts because I really like the idea of getting a lot of variety in the routine. After a month or two of doing that, I should have a better idea of how I'm performing and how to craft routines that are more effective.

Since I'm sure nearly everyone here has more rowing experience than me, what do you think? Is this going to be an effective starting strategy, or should I go a different direction?

[Cazneau]

But here's my thought. You might want to select three or four workouts--some long and moderate paced , some more intense interval workouts--and keep repeating them. The best way to know if you are improving is if your times and paces start to drop on the same workout. If you simply cycle through dozens of workouts, it will be harder to gauge progress. As you get bored with the first three or four, you can start adding others one at a time, but keep going back to the original ones periodically to measure your progress.

[Citroen]

Try this: http://www.concept2.co.uk/weightloss/interactive.php

At 250lbs (17st 12lb) you're 113.6Kgs.

[maximoburrito]

Thanks. I hadn't really thought about that because my goal isn't to become a better rower. It's just a nice side effect. But now that I think about it, I definitely am very number oriented, and seeing changes there would definitely be motivating especially on the weeks where the scale isn't moving enough to make me happy.

In my limited rowing experience, I've only ever looked at the 500m split time the rower gives out. (and then, only on the shorter rows I've been doing) I've generally judged my progress on how hard it is to maintain certain speeds. When I first started, I was really exerted myself to get a 2:30 pace. Now 2:20 - 2:30 feels like a light warm up pace and I shoot for under 2:00 for the short rows. I've been able to hit as high as 1:45 for extremely short intervals (30s-1m) but that really takes all my power.

Having said that, I an definitely see that a number like that is only directly comparable in the context of the same overall workout. Perhaps it would be better to simply work in some of the standard "ranked" measurements from the online logbook? Since I do a lot of 500m and 1000m rows now, I have a good feeling already of what I can expect there and those seem like the type of measurements that I could more easily come back to a year or two from now when (hopefully) I'll have knocked off those last 70 pounds and have shifted from weight loss to fitness mode.

Since I've only done shorter rows, the 5k/10k rows are very appealing challenges to me. Perhaps I should plan to do a weekly longer row like that and measure progress like that?

[maximoburrito]

Thanks. I had seen the UK site, but I chose the US one based solely on my impression of having a bit more variety in the workout. The UK workout suggestions are much less varied and less interesting. Perhaps that means it's more focussed and more effective? In general, I believe that training a variety of ways is more likely to keep your body adjusting and facing new challenges, but obviously if I were an expert on fitness I would have never gotten so far overweight in the first place.

Have you tried either the US or UK concept2 weight loss workout suggestions? How did the program work for you?

[iain]

Thanks. I hadn't really thought about that because my goal isn't to become a better rower. It's just a nice side effect. But now that I think about it, I definitely am very number oriented, and seeing changes there would definitely be motivating especially on the weeks where the scale isn't moving enough to make me happy.

When I first started, I was really exerted myself to get a 2:30 pace. Now 2:20 - 2:30 feels like a light warm up pace and I shoot for under 2:00 for the short rows. I've been able to hit as high as 1:45 for extremely short intervals (30s-1m) but that really takes all my power.

First of all congratulations on your impressive increase in speed. 2:30 to 2:00 is nearly twice the power output, a great increase in anyone's books.

I am no expert, but generally the consensus is that it is longer rows that really shift the pounds. These can be broken up by short rests to drink, towel and stretch if preferred. This is based on proportion of fat burned being higher at lower intensities and after the first 30 mins or so. Some people do hold that the ongoing benefit of increased strength from shorter more intense sessions increase the actual calorie effect as more calories are burned by a higher metabolism and in repairing the muscle. However, these will burn your glycogen reserves leaving you hungry and require greater will not to up your food intake to negate the benefits.

The program depends on what works for you. Many people like the structure of one of the programs as then you know what to do and don't shirk when feeling down. Others are disciplined enough to keep up the work and would rather have different workouts to satisfy different moods. I would recommend a reduced "menu" as you will then quickly identify a "comfortable" pace which will, of course, reduce further in time.

Keep up the good work

Iain

[iain]

Sorry, never made my main point. Be critical of trainers. They are often very experienced in weights, nutrition, physiology, anatomy etc. but no very little about rowing.

In my gym I cringe at the "coaching" given. I have seen people breaking their knees before completing the stroke (and so wasting the end of the stroke as it merely hauls them up the slide) and the main advice given seems to be to "use your arms more", great when 70% of the power should come from your legs!

There are many trainers knowledgeable about indoor rowing (including many who contribute to the C2 sites) and from your times you probably have got the basics right, but don't assume that your coach necessarily knows best.

Regards

Iain

[maximoburrito]

I really need the structure of a set program. I'm sure no matter what I do, It'll be an improvement. I just hate to think that I might not be doing the best I can.

My trainer is not concept 2 certified and doesn't have a competitive rowing background. However, he is crossfit certified, and crossfit does teach proper rowing techniques, at least within the context of the limited types of rowing that we tend to do. I'm not looking to my trainer for more sophisticated rowing instruction, but simply to make sure that what I want to do won't interfere with our main work.

Up to now, my primary between-training activity has been cycling. However, for me cycling is strictly recreational, and using it for training takes the enjoyment out of it. So far, I've felt really good trying to push myself harder on the rower, so I feel confident that I'll be able to keep up with it as a big part of my extra training.

Thanks for the feedback. It looks to me like the weight loss oriented workout of the day routines on the concept 2 site have a mix between longer intervals and longer rows. I'm hoping that's sufficient. I wouldn't be afraid to use the less varied but more methodical long routines on the UK concept 2 site if the general opinion is that it will lead to better results.

[SkipChurch]

I second what iain said about trainers. My gosh, it's just awful to listen to them. In general rowing in a public gym is annoying to me because of the pitiful form of so many people, and the idiotic advice of the trainers. What I've seen in public gyms is an amazing ability to maximize stroke rate while still achieving pathetic split times. It's like they don't comprehend what the split time is.

[iain]

I second what iain said about trainers. My gosh, it's just awful to listen to them. In general rowing in a public gym is annoying to me because of the pitiful form of so many people, and the idiotic advice of the trainers. What I've seen in public gyms is an amazing ability to maximize stroke rate while still achieving pathetic split times. It's like they don't comprehend what the split time is.

My other gripe is that I regularly hear people told to "haul with your arms", its as if the legs are not considered involved! I have also heard the "men erg on 10" approach to optimising drag.

That said, I do take a sadistic delight during a longer row in maintaining the same or lower split than the far stronger and younger occupant of the next door ergo who is rating 50 or even 100% higher, starts after me and stops a couple of minutes later. It takes my mind off the pain that I am in.

I know that I should help, but I have never managed to receive any cooperation when I have made suggestions in gyms and have had several people be offensively contemptuous.

That said, there are some trainers who know what they are doing. A few questions on what times / rates they do will eliminate the majority of the dross. If they do 1:55 at 40 SPM and look strong and fit, don't take them too seriously!

- Iain

[SkipChurch]

*sigh* ... okay, more pet peeves of the public gym. People using the rower as a really bad curl machine. Have you ever seen that?? Guys erging on 10 cuz they're REAL MEN, LOL. And people leaning back at some extreme angle or doing other bizarre antics. Just row, for heaven's sake, it's hard enough without trying to 'improve' the exercise with screwy "innovations".

It's fruitless telling anybody anything because they know it all already.

I'm too much of a curmudgeon to go to public gyms anymore I guess, especially now that I don't do powerlifting anymore.

Anyway.

[Bob S.]

People using the rower as a really bad curl machine. Have you ever seen that? And people leaning back at some extreme angle or doing other bizarre antics. Just row, for heaven's sake, it's hard enough without trying to 'improve' the exercise with screwy "innovations".

Check it out before you knock it. Have a look at Rob Waddell's innovative use of the erg on this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0JOq0HCBAs

The one time I have seen the erg used as a curl machine it was being done by a class, led by a young man, who competed in one of the satellite regattas a couple of days later. His 2k time of 6:04 was not enough to qualify him for a Boston trip, but it was the fastest time of any at that regatta.

The class, which includes some of the bizarre antics you mention, was one conducted by an organization that holds these classes all across the country. I believe that the purpose is to show the versatility of the erg and to provide a little variety to relieve the boredom of doing the same thing over and over again. Note that this was not being done in the typical public gym but at institutions that specialize in rowing and erging.

Bob S.

[SkipChurch]

Well Bob, here's my thing: if you're at a public gym, why wouldn't you just go to the actual curl machine or preacher bench to do curls, instead of taking up time on a rower shared by the other members? Know what I mean?

I mean...sure...people can do what they please I suppose, they pay their memberships, they can use the equipment however they think is worthwhile. And as I said, I'm too much of a curmudgeon to put up with public gyms anymore.

[Bob S.]

Well Bob, here's my thing: if you're at a public gym, why wouldn't you just go to the actual curl machine or preacher bench to do curls, instead of taking up time on a rower shared by the other members? Know what I mean?

I mean...sure...people can do what they please I suppose, they pay their memberships, they can use the equipment however they think is worthwhile. And as I said, I'm too much of a curmudgeon to put up with public gyms anymore.

I haven’t been there myself, but from the many reports that I have read on this and the UK forum, I have a good picture of what goes on at the public gyms. I quite agree with you that it is not a very pretty picture. If I had seen the curling bit at a public gym, I would have probably reacted the same as you. As it happened, I was at my old club, the Long Beach Rowing Association (LBRA), and I recognized the instructor. He is in his late twenties now, but I have known him since his high school days when he was rowing in the junior program at the club. Although the exercises seemed odd to me, I figured that he knew what he was doing and had good reasons for doing them. The organization that runs these classes is called Rowbics:

http://www.concept2.com/us/commercial/rowbics/

As you can see, they appear to have support from Concept 2, so I assume that C2 approves of their training methods. They have some sort of deal with LBRA to use the club’s indoor rowers and their website shows other locations scattered across the country:

http://www.rowbics.com/instructors/

A competing organization is called Indorow:

http://www.indo-row.com/

It, too, has branches nation-wide as can be seen on the website. I have never seen one of their classes in operation, so I don‘t know if they get into these unusual variations or if they stick to straight rowing.

The scene in Xeno’s video of Rob Waddell doing leg extensions with his toes on the seat of the erg was amusing, but I think that they were just horsing around. I don’t think that Xeno includes that in his classes. He does get into at least one variation, rowing with just one leg and this is presented in a training video of his that I have. Since he has slides for all of his C2 indoor rowers, it is relatively easy to do the one-legged technique at his Ironoarsman gym. I don’t know if he gets into the other variations or not. I think that he does have some other variations in that video, but I haven’t looked at it for a while and forgotten the details.

Bob S.

[maximoburrito]

So, I'm about a month in. I've logged my first 100k meters on the rower. I'm only down about 5 pounds, but I haven't been as good as I should have with my diet. Having been traveling a bit was part of that, but I think most of the blame lies at my own feet. 5 pounds is not bad for 1 month, but that doesn't really represent an increase over what I was doing before.

Next month should be a bit better. I'm starting out watching the nutrition a bit more carefully, and I've gotten the rowing levels ramped up. Should be interesting.