I've been rowing for about 16 months, initially to lose a few pounds (say 10-15) , and specifically to check rising fasting glucose, improve HDL. Aerobic equipment (ellipticals, etc) at gym was not sufficient.
Met all the goals - happy! Certainly took some effort, as we all know. Now I row to keep the benefits, lose a few more pounds, and enjoy unexpected benefit: mental health.
But my body shape a bit puzzled. I've always been pear shape, slightly overweight, round in middle.
I guess I assumed any weight lost would come from the middle - not so.
My face, neck and upper body have thinned out - seems like I'm mostly skin, bone and veins on top (chest up)
Sure, the middle has reduced (my clothes fit better), but I'm still round, with big, obvious bulge in the middle. (ok, ok, I can probably lose a few more - I'm working on it).
Is this your experience?
Some data:
57 yo male, 154 lbs dropped to 139 lbs (stable), 100k-150k meters per month, healthy vegetarian diet, also light weight training (maintain muscle mass, 2-3x a week)
Body Shape?
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jimrothstein
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Body Shape?
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
Re: Body Shape?
Completely basing this off of personal experience and I don't have references for this, but... the body preferentially puts fat in some spots more than other spots. When you burn fat off, it burns off pretty evenly everywhere. End effect: first spot to get fat is the last spot to get lean. For most guys that spot seems to be at the navel.
I've gotten my body fat down to 10% (measured with ultrasound), and that's about where the navel bulge was just starting to thin out. If you want to see lean abs there, the 6-8% range is where that happens. So, if you want to keep trimming the middle, adjust your calories slightly down or your exercise slightly up, keep your healthy diet, keep lifting, and just be more persistent about it than I've managed to be.
I've gotten my body fat down to 10% (measured with ultrasound), and that's about where the navel bulge was just starting to thin out. If you want to see lean abs there, the 6-8% range is where that happens. So, if you want to keep trimming the middle, adjust your calories slightly down or your exercise slightly up, keep your healthy diet, keep lifting, and just be more persistent about it than I've managed to be.
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jimrothstein
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Re: Body Shape?
Thanks. As much as I'd love to reach your level, reduce my middle, and your continuing advice seems right, my concern is really about comparison, 'ratio'brianh wrote:.... So, if you want to keep trimming the middle, adjust your calories slightly down or your exercise slightly up, keep your healthy diet, keep lifting, and just be more persistent about it than I've managed to be.
Upper body beginning to look only skin, bone, veins; while middle is round and sticks out. (I still look pregnant.)
Have I overdone it?
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
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hjs
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Re: Body Shape?
Looking at your stats, your intensity is very low. Your 2k time is very modest. So your muscle don't do much work. If you want to alter your body, you need to train differently. You know have very little muscle.jimrothstein wrote:Thanks. As much as I'd love to reach your level, reduce my middle, and your continuing advice seems right, my concern is really about comparison, 'ratio'brianh wrote:.... So, if you want to keep trimming the middle, adjust your calories slightly down or your exercise slightly up, keep your healthy diet, keep lifting, and just be more persistent about it than I've managed to be.
Upper body beginning to look only skin, bone, veins; while middle is round and sticks out. (I still look pregnant.)
Have I overdone it?
I don't know how and why you train the way you train, but a just below 2.30k 2k time is very very easy. Even for a smaller guy like you.
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jimrothstein
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Re: Body Shape?
Haha - yes, I am slow.
Guess I *assume* sustainable pace, but with longer workouts, would meet my needs. I don't leave a puddle on floor; don't race, but still I am fairly pooped at end.
I have tried to emphasize sustainable energy per stroke (quick check: divide Watts by spm), rather than pace or speed - I.d burnout.
Is this why I've become scrawny at top, but still big, round in the middle?
Some data:
~6-8k/workout; 40k/week; ~160k/month
"Typical Workout" (rough)
TOTAL: 52-55' | 8.3k
Breakdown:
-5' | warm up | 700m
-12:30' |2k|@3.07, 53W|14 spm-strict PLUS 'rest 2'|300 m
-12:0' |2k|@3.00, 60W|20 spm-strict PLUS 'rest' 2'|300 m
-11:30 |2k|@2:52.5, 68W|22-24 spm PLUS 'rest' 2'|300m
-5' |cool|750m
Guess I *assume* sustainable pace, but with longer workouts, would meet my needs. I don't leave a puddle on floor; don't race, but still I am fairly pooped at end.
I have tried to emphasize sustainable energy per stroke (quick check: divide Watts by spm), rather than pace or speed - I.d burnout.
Is this why I've become scrawny at top, but still big, round in the middle?
Some data:
~6-8k/workout; 40k/week; ~160k/month
"Typical Workout" (rough)
TOTAL: 52-55' | 8.3k
Breakdown:
-5' | warm up | 700m
-12:30' |2k|@3.07, 53W|14 spm-strict PLUS 'rest 2'|300 m
-12:0' |2k|@3.00, 60W|20 spm-strict PLUS 'rest' 2'|300 m
-11:30 |2k|@2:52.5, 68W|22-24 spm PLUS 'rest' 2'|300m
-5' |cool|750m
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
Re: Body Shape?
You didn't put in the numbers, but, completing the divisions, I came up with are 3.8, 3.0, and 2.8-3.1 watt-minutes/per stroke for those three pieces - very low figures for work done per stroke. You are just not pulling very hard - or, better, you are not pushing hard enough with your legs. The leg part of the drive should be hard and fast, almost like leaping into the air from a squat.jimrothstein wrote:Haha - yes, I am slow.
Guess I *assume* sustainable pace, but with longer workouts, would meet my needs. I don't leave a puddle on floor; don't race, but still I am fairly pooped at end.
I have tried to emphasize sustainable energy per stroke (quick check: divide Watts by spm), rather than pace or speed - I.d burnout.
Is this why I've become scrawny at top, but still big, round in the middle?
Some data:
~6-8k/workout; 40k/week; ~160k/month
"Typical Workout" (rough)
TOTAL: 52-55' | 8.3k
Breakdown:
-5' | warm up | 700m
-12:30' |2k|@3.07, 53W|14 spm-strict PLUS 'rest 2'|300 m
-12:0' |2k|@3.00, 60W|20 spm-strict PLUS 'rest' 2'|300 m
-11:30 |2k|@2:52.5, 68W|22-24 spm PLUS 'rest' 2'|300m
-5' |cool|750m
Bob S.
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jimrothstein
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Re: Body Shape?
hi Bob:
Yes, my energy per stroke ratio (Watts divided by spm) is LOW. Best I can do is 4-5, and I can NOT hold 5 for any length of time. Perhaps I do have structural flaw in my stroke, which might also explain change in body shape (over 18 months).3.8, 3.0, and 2.8-3.1 watt-minutes/per stroke .... very low figures for work done per stroke
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
Re: Body Shape?
What do you feel is holding you back from higher intensity? Muscle strength? Cardio limitations? Energy level in general?
If it's muscle strength, then what to do depends on which muscles. If your legs are getting sore and then weak when trying to do higher intensity, then you need to do supplemental strength training for them and make sure you're getting appropriate protein etc. Without any gym equipment, unweighted squats are a good starting point, and pistol squats are awesome. If your back/arm muscles are getting sore and weakening, then you need to accentuate the leg drive and study the rowing form videos on C2's site and figure out what you're doing wrong.
If it's your energy level in general, you might not be getting enough calories for the amount of exercise you're doing. You need a deficit to lose fat, but if your deficit is too big you just won't be able to perform as needed, and your weight loss won't be healthy. The other alternative is that you simply haven't broken out of your comfort zone, and aren't trying as hard as you could be. I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that; when you only do low effort stuff, it's extremely hard to do even medium effort. A big part of what you can do is determined by the conditioning of your central nervous system, and it tends to like to only try as hard as it needs to. An easy example of this is that most people who start weight training after being sedentary manage to double the amount of weight that they can lift in a couple of weeks. It's not that they suddenly pack on a ton of muscle, it's that their nervous system adapts to the new demands and makes better use of the muscle that's already there.
If cardio is the limitation, or as mentioned before you just aren't trying hard enough, then the problem is simply that you're not doing high intensity work. In order for your cardio to improve, you must push your capabilities. You don't have to do it every single workout--there is more value in low intensity work than many people want to acknowledge--but you absolutely have to include some honest hard work if you want to get better. Get uncomfortable, get sweaty, push hard enough that you're praying for the countdown to reach zero. Stepping up your cardio performance is a forcible act of will, and anything less than that is almost guaranteeing stagnation.
As far as relevance to the original topic, will higher intensity work help lose the gut faster? Probably no more so than just working longer at lower intensity will. However, higher intensity work has massive benefits to feeling better in general (physically and mentally), making daily tasks easier, sleeping better, and making the workouts themselves more interesting and more rewarding.
If it's muscle strength, then what to do depends on which muscles. If your legs are getting sore and then weak when trying to do higher intensity, then you need to do supplemental strength training for them and make sure you're getting appropriate protein etc. Without any gym equipment, unweighted squats are a good starting point, and pistol squats are awesome. If your back/arm muscles are getting sore and weakening, then you need to accentuate the leg drive and study the rowing form videos on C2's site and figure out what you're doing wrong.
If it's your energy level in general, you might not be getting enough calories for the amount of exercise you're doing. You need a deficit to lose fat, but if your deficit is too big you just won't be able to perform as needed, and your weight loss won't be healthy. The other alternative is that you simply haven't broken out of your comfort zone, and aren't trying as hard as you could be. I'm not trying to be insulting when I say that; when you only do low effort stuff, it's extremely hard to do even medium effort. A big part of what you can do is determined by the conditioning of your central nervous system, and it tends to like to only try as hard as it needs to. An easy example of this is that most people who start weight training after being sedentary manage to double the amount of weight that they can lift in a couple of weeks. It's not that they suddenly pack on a ton of muscle, it's that their nervous system adapts to the new demands and makes better use of the muscle that's already there.
If cardio is the limitation, or as mentioned before you just aren't trying hard enough, then the problem is simply that you're not doing high intensity work. In order for your cardio to improve, you must push your capabilities. You don't have to do it every single workout--there is more value in low intensity work than many people want to acknowledge--but you absolutely have to include some honest hard work if you want to get better. Get uncomfortable, get sweaty, push hard enough that you're praying for the countdown to reach zero. Stepping up your cardio performance is a forcible act of will, and anything less than that is almost guaranteeing stagnation.
As far as relevance to the original topic, will higher intensity work help lose the gut faster? Probably no more so than just working longer at lower intensity will. However, higher intensity work has massive benefits to feeling better in general (physically and mentally), making daily tasks easier, sleeping better, and making the workouts themselves more interesting and more rewarding.
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hjs
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- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
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Re: Body Shape?
You can get stronger on the erg, row short intervals on short rest. For example 250 reps on 1 min rest. Do 10/15 reps, after the last you really need go feel like you have 90% of you max. Do a good warm up and cd. You can vary the distances. Do this 2/3 times a week, other work should be easier and just steady paced.
Harder work will elevate your base metabolism. Eat healthy, for me that enough protein, plenty of greens, good fats and keep the carbs modest.
FOr your upperbody you could some press ups, again 2/3 times a week. This to train your pushing muscle which dont do much on the erg.
Harder work will elevate your base metabolism. Eat healthy, for me that enough protein, plenty of greens, good fats and keep the carbs modest.
FOr your upperbody you could some press ups, again 2/3 times a week. This to train your pushing muscle which dont do much on the erg.
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jimrothstein
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Re: Body Shape?
hjs and brianh
Thanks for thoughts. Brian you've hit on a number of good points I've wondered about: protein, calories, rest between workouts, need to push to improve. (I try to keep records.) I do know this feeling, from more intense workouts (say, repetitive 500m sprints)
But for purposes of this thread "Body Shape ?", we've gotten a little off track of my original question. This is that I realize that my top (upper chest, arms, neck, even face) has shrunk to just skin, bone, vein (haggard look) while my middle, though smaller than 16 months ago, is lagging behind upper body. The net effect is that my shape seems to have become even MORE pear shaped; it is MORE pronounced. Just seems a little strange.
Maybe this is how my metabolism works, as an earlier poster suggested, and how fat arranges itself, but I posed it as a question to see if others experienced this. (Again, I will try to build in days with more intense workouts, i.e. pushing the limit. And do value everyone's points - thanks.)
Thanks for thoughts. Brian you've hit on a number of good points I've wondered about: protein, calories, rest between workouts, need to push to improve. (I try to keep records.) I do know this feeling, from more intense workouts (say, repetitive 500m sprints)
Perhaps I think staying in good form for 45 min or so on concept2 IS fairly intense (with some more intense days sprinkled in) while you guys are much more competitive. I am losing weight, my glucose numbers are much better; I am meeting my goals that you may find too modest. (I will review!)Get uncomfortable, get sweaty, push hard enough that you're praying for the countdown to reach zero.
But for purposes of this thread "Body Shape ?", we've gotten a little off track of my original question. This is that I realize that my top (upper chest, arms, neck, even face) has shrunk to just skin, bone, vein (haggard look) while my middle, though smaller than 16 months ago, is lagging behind upper body. The net effect is that my shape seems to have become even MORE pear shaped; it is MORE pronounced. Just seems a little strange.
Maybe this is how my metabolism works, as an earlier poster suggested, and how fat arranges itself, but I posed it as a question to see if others experienced this. (Again, I will try to build in days with more intense workouts, i.e. pushing the limit. And do value everyone's points - thanks.)
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
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hjs
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Re: Body Shape?
Your excerse is is low modest that you don,t build any musle.
Endurence stuff does lower your testosterone levels, low testosterone does relate with fat reserves in the belly area.
45 minutes exercise and sweating is simply not hard work. Nothing wrong with it, but it simply won,t help you much.
Endurence stuff does lower your testosterone levels, low testosterone does relate with fat reserves in the belly area.
45 minutes exercise and sweating is simply not hard work. Nothing wrong with it, but it simply won,t help you much.
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jimrothstein
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Re: Body Shape?
Ok, here is more intense workout; can do 2-3 times per month :
500 m sprint + 3' min rest, repeat 4 times
Total 45' | 7.9 k
Breakdown
-15:31' | 'warm-up' (intense) | 3k|@2:35.2,95W,24 spm|ratio:4.0
-cycle 1 |500m|@2:17.6,134W,27 spm|ratio 5.0
-cycle 2 |500m|@2:26.8,111W,25 spm|ratio 4.4
-cycle 3 |500m|@2:29.5,105W,25 spm|ratio 4.0
-cycle 4 |500m|@2:29.5,105W,26 spm|ratio 4.0
-plus various cool-downs
Feels pretty close to my maximum intensity (at current fitness level, age, etc.)
I just hope fuel is fat, not sugars - completely different workout then at 14 or 20 spm.
(But big problem is the I am wasted for remainder of day - fall asleep on subway, only think about food. Not practical!)
500 m sprint + 3' min rest, repeat 4 times
Total 45' | 7.9 k
Breakdown
-15:31' | 'warm-up' (intense) | 3k|@2:35.2,95W,24 spm|ratio:4.0
-cycle 1 |500m|@2:17.6,134W,27 spm|ratio 5.0
-cycle 2 |500m|@2:26.8,111W,25 spm|ratio 4.4
-cycle 3 |500m|@2:29.5,105W,25 spm|ratio 4.0
-cycle 4 |500m|@2:29.5,105W,26 spm|ratio 4.0
-plus various cool-downs
Feels pretty close to my maximum intensity (at current fitness level, age, etc.)
I just hope fuel is fat, not sugars - completely different workout then at 14 or 20 spm.
(But big problem is the I am wasted for remainder of day - fall asleep on subway, only think about food. Not practical!)
57y, 162cm, 64kg, BEST: 2:27.3/500 | 5:12.7/1k | 9:49.4/2k | 5470/30 min | 58:23/10k | Since 12/2011 | Shenzhen, China; Berkeley, Calif
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hjs
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- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:18 pm
- Location: Amstelveen the netherlands
Re: Body Shape?
Difficult to judge for here.
To me the problem seems to poor overall fitness. Looking at the rating for a guy your height you move very slowly. To erg at rate 30 plus should not be a problem.
re fat/carbs, you should not worry about that during your training. Carbs are needed fuel for serious work outs, you can only burn fast at very modest efforts.
What other kind of fitness do you or can you do, can you climb stairs for instanse?
To me the problem seems to poor overall fitness. Looking at the rating for a guy your height you move very slowly. To erg at rate 30 plus should not be a problem.
re fat/carbs, you should not worry about that during your training. Carbs are needed fuel for serious work outs, you can only burn fast at very modest efforts.
What other kind of fitness do you or can you do, can you climb stairs for instanse?