Concept2 Forum

Just FYI. Changes Concept2 Utility connectivity, usb flash drive dropped, etc. So be aware when giving guidance to new PM5 users.



https://www.concept2.com/support/monito ... ware#ports

Big question, will it still support USB-C sticks and wired upgrades?

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 18th, 2024, 11:24 am

Big question, will it still support USB-C sticks and wired upgrades?

This was the text next to photo. Was not 100% clear to me, but looks like firmware update over usb-c cable but no firmware boot/recovery or data logging using flash drive in the usb-c port.

https://www.concept2.com/support/monito ... ware#ports

"If using ErgData to update your firmware is not an option, then:

"If your monitor has a USB-C port, you will need a cable that has a USB-C plug on one end for plugging into the PM5, and either USB-C or a USB-A plug on the other end for plugging into your computer. Check your computer for the type of plugs it can accommodate. Please note that USB-C flash drives are not compatible with the PM5."

Okay, that limits some scenario's. Loops like they completely move to ErgData then.

As a side note: in the dark horse video about the StrengthErg (new product!) the brothers explain that the PM5 is optional, and the alternative is a phone with ErgData (combined with some barebones PM5 somewhere??). So interesting movement.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

October 18th, 2024, 11:13 am

Just FYI. Changes Concept2 Utility connectivity, usb flash drive dropped, etc. So be aware when giving guidance to new PM5 users.

Thanks...didn't know that.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 18th, 2024, 11:24 am

Big question, will it still support USB-C sticks and wired upgrades?

Probably need to use an USB-C to USB-A OTG cable for a USB2 stick. I'd be surprised if this doesn't still work. I believe USB-C flash drives are a whole new beast, hence the incompatibility.

Its should be pointed out that this the the 5th Generation PM5 that was released back in March 2024.

Its been 10 years since the 1st Gen PM5 was released, how time flies.

The time has come to release the complete monitor as an App, it would now look amazing on a colour tablet.

stevegaspars wrote: ↑

October 19th, 2024, 7:26 am

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 18th, 2024, 11:24 am

Big question, will it still support USB-C sticks and wired upgrades?

Probably need to use an USB-C to USB-A OTG cable for a USB2 stick. I'd be surprised if this doesn't still work. I believe USB-C flash drives are a whole new beast, hence the incompatibility.

I use USB-A drives with a USBA-C adapter all the time with my laptop. I haven't had the opportunity to try a PM5, but I don't see why it would be any different.

https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B0BM9HXVFF

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

October 19th, 2024, 9:00 pm

Its should be pointed out that this the the 5th Generation PM5 that was released back in March 2024.

Its been 10 years since the 1st Gen PM5 was released, how time flies.

The time has come to release the complete monitor as an App, it would now look amazing on a colour tablet.

It's actually 6th Gen, but who's counting (v4 never made it to market).

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

October 19th, 2024, 9:00 pm

The time has come to release the complete monitor as an App, it would now look amazing on a colour tablet.

As said in other threads: having such a component would essentially come down to a PM5 without a screen.

The new StrengthErg has this option, but I'm not sure it can be easily translated to a RowErg etc., as the data intensity of the RowErg and SkiErg is much higher and key functions like the forcecurve are at odds with the minimum BLE update interval of 20ms (iPhone), introducing a lag in updates. RP3 seems to manage it, but I don't know how data-intensive their machine is.

Somehow I think it can be done on the Erg pretty easily.

I have an Android tablet on the WattBike Atom X, its looking at the loadcell an the crank position and throwing out a PES score, or Pedal Efficiency Score, which is bit like power curve on the Erg but way better, it would be like having a score of your Drive and comparing that to that of a top elite rower in real time instead of just a pretty useless graph on the PM5. You could then work on your technique to improve the score with the feedback provided stroke by stroke.

The PM5 is unfortunately 10 years behind the times. Its only when you move to something like is on the WattBike do you realise what you have been missing on the C2 Erg. So much untapped potential to combine the Monitor with ErgData with online rowing and a whole host of other features and improvements on the one device.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 4:28 am

I have an Android tablet on the WattBike Atom X, its looking at the loadcell an the crank position and throwing out a PES score, or Pedal Efficiency Score, which is bit like power curve on the Erg but way better, it would be like having a score of your Drive and comparing that to that of a top elite rower in real time instead of just a pretty useless graph on the PM5. You could then work on your technique to improve the score with the feedback provided stroke by stroke.

But a pedal maxes out at 120 RPM, plenty of time to broadcast it, even via old protocols like ANT+. And a pedal is a pretty stable and simple rotational motion. But when you look into the underlying specs and put to the test (currently I'm working on a commercial project to design the perfect cycling simulator, so I am paid to do that), these powermeters are horribly slow and inaccurate.

A flywheel hits anywhere between 1000 and 2000 RPM (so over 10 times as fast), and the motion by definition is composite of multiple movements. All metrics are highly dependent on incredible small changes in flywheel speed. In terms of movement, cyclings is more like checkers, and rowing is more like chess. Much more complex by design.

And comparing a force curve composition to elite rowers is plain stupid, as the movement is optimal in a different way for everybody (skullers tend to front-load, sweepers tend ro back-load, and some have a flatter curve than others). Again, rowing is a much more intricate movement requiring a lot more detailed metrics to analyse.

I think the force curve is one of the most essential metrics of rowing technique. You can see where it drops, and you can even combine it with video and see it happening. That approach helped improve my own technique a lot.

That isn't said that C2 can't improve. Currently, my Garmin watch captures more rowing data then C2, which is just weird. I'm quite interested in measurements RP3 does on the force curve (i.e. standard deviation on the peak, as a measure of consistency) as well as being able to set an ideal curve to be followed. With ORM we calculate it now, and it provides quite some interesting insights.

With ORM we are working with partners to post-training analysis using AI, which provides intersting insights. Here, the shape and size of the force curve is key, but it can't be captured in a single set of parameters. It typically is visualised to show where the issue is.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 4:28 am

So much untapped potential to combine the Monitor with ErgData with online rowing and a whole host of other features and improvements on the one device.

There is absolutely nothing wrong excelling in a small niche and let others do that. Online rowing has strong players, which are software/game companies, not hardware companies. And they serve all brands equally. EXR did a collab with RP3 recently, where EXR provides the game and RP3 the hardware. Nothing wrong with C2 doing the same. Better to excel in hardware manufacturing then to become a second Peleton.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 6:25 am

... Currently, my Garmin watch captures more rowing data then C2, which is just weird.

I use Garmin 265 connected to PM5 with Ant+ fe-c. I don't get anything extra in Garmin connect. (other than breathing which isn't coming from the PM5, and for my watch a very funky skin temp projected from HR that is still in beta).

What are you seeing? <kid in candy store here>

Tsnor wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 12:10 pm

What are you seeing? <kid in candy store here>

On my Garmin Epix I'm getting pace, power, stroke rate and distance per stroke.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 1:21 pm

Tsnor wrote: ↑

October 20th, 2024, 12:10 pm

What are you seeing? <kid in candy store here>

On my Garmin Epix I'm getting pace, power, stroke rate and distance per stroke.

that's what C2 gives with PM5. Distance per stroke you need to calculate from the per stroke data to get graph.