Concept2 Forum

Hi everyone,
I’m returning to rowing after a few years out and I see things have changed.

Where ar most people rowing online these days? I was rowing on RowPro but there hardly seems any sessions on there anymore.

Are most people using ErgData? Are there lots of sessions on there? Or is there another place I’ve not yet found?

Do I have to update from PM3 to PM5 to use ErgData or can I connect via cable to my Samsung phone or iPad from my PM3 to use ErgData?

I’m a little confused.

Cheers.

Euron
Beddgelert

No responses, eh? I wonder if cross-posting the same topic in the Indoor Rowers forum (viewforum.php?f=10) would generate better traffic? I don't think people check here as often.

I am a light-weight as indoor rowing goes, and haven't really done much online rowing. But the new ErgData "Real Time" setting has been a lot of fun for casual sessions. Note that it's a self-driven row - no guidance provided, only a measured "Just Row" session where you can see other people who are working out at the same time. I've found people online at almost any time of day though, which makes working out feel much less solitary.

Following the "Workout of the Day" sessions have provided me a bit more structure - but I'm not sure how workouts get picked, and can't help but wonder if it's just rotating through a semi-random set instead of some kind of structured plan. Still, at least it gives something specific to shoot for when I don't feel like setting my own targets.

I've only got a PM5, so can't comment on PM3 compatibility. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in there.


Looking forward to hearing from some others!

I'm not sure, but I suspect the lack of responses is due to there not being any options.

I certainly don't know of any, although that doesn't mean very much as I'm not looking for them. There does seem to have been a downturn in interest in recent years from things I've heard other people taking about

euron.thomas wrote: ↑

August 23rd, 2023, 5:45 pm

Where ar most people rowing online these days? I was rowing on RowPro but there hardly seems any sessions on there anymore.

EXR (https://exrgame.com/) is quite active. On the course of the day there usually is traffic, and there are sessions almost every day. The discord group is quite active, so people also organise their own sessions with people.

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I need to get m6 hands on a pm5 to explore these other app options.

euron.thomas wrote: ↑

August 28th, 2023, 12:11 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. I think I need to get m6 hands on a pm5 to explore these other app options.

See https://exrgame.com/support/concept-2

EXR can work with a cable on a PM3 and a Windows device.

Get a PM5 if you want to use ErgData, don't waste your time with a PM3 or a PM4.

Things have changed and it looks like EXR is the place to be now.

Even Zwift looked at releasing some rowing software a couple of years ago now, they had it all done and were 2 weeks away from the release then they cancelled it for some reason.

There is really only enough room in the market for one when it comes to rowing, simply not the numbers interested in rowing online.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

August 28th, 2023, 9:51 pm

There is really only enough room in the market for one when it comes to rowing, simply not the numbers interested in rowing online.

Any guesses or reasons people you know cite why there is not enough interest in rowing online versus other modalities? Why do Zwift and Peloton draw such big numbers for cycling online? Is it the experience or the athlete? There's definitely a disproportion between # ergs in the market vs online participation vis-a-vis cycling. It's even worse for treadmills.

Aquaman wrote: ↑

August 30th, 2023, 3:35 pm

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

August 28th, 2023, 9:51 pm

There is really only enough room in the market for one when it comes to rowing, simply not the numbers interested in rowing online.

Any guesses or reasons people you know cite why there is not enough interest in rowing online versus other modalities? Why do Zwift and Peloton draw such big numbers for cycling online? Is it the experience or the athlete? There's definitely a disproportion between # ergs in the market vs online participation vis-a-vis cycling. It's even worse for treadmills.

Bikes in the world must outnumber Ergs by 1000 to 1.

Cyclist like to ride in a Peloton and part of the skill is drafting. Rowing is an individual sport and the psychology is totally different. Rowers seem to like going it alone and thrashing themselves in the basement.

Zwift is a no contest, the speed, the scenery possibilities, the gradient changes, the colours the graphics quality and the number of users is just crazy there are at least 3500 online 24/7 you can literally join a specific pace partner ride with 20 to 50 other people any time of the day or night.

Software like this just has to hit a critical mass of users and it just snowballs from there on in.

For me RowPro was never about the graphics, it was an awesome training tool for 12 years. Unfortunately I think I was wrong however, for most people its ALL about the graphics.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

August 31st, 2023, 1:34 am

Cyclist like to ride in a Peloton and part of the skill is drafting. Rowing is an individual sport and the psychology is totally different. Rowers seem to like going it alone and thrashing themselves in the basement.

I don't know. My personal observation in the EXR discord is totally different.

I see people organising rows frequently, some starting at 5:30AM local time, some at more convenient times. And most rows contain a group of four in a set pace. People clearly want company.

Rowers indeed do not travel in large packs. But smaller groups seems to work. Are Saturday rows with three different pace groups are also an example: the faster groups are 6 to 12 people, the slower groups vary between 4 to 8. People like the company, but at an oar-length please.

So in a sense it is about company. People like some company, just not 20 or 30 of them. I personally like a row with 3 to 4 people: it keeps me socially engaged while not overcrowding the waters, especially near bridges, sewers, tunnels and locks.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

August 31st, 2023, 1:34 am

Zwift is a no contest, the speed, the scenery possibilities, the gradient changes, the colours the graphics quality and the number of users is just crazy there are at least 3500 online 24/7 you can literally join a specific pace partner ride with 20 to 50 other people any time of the day or night.

Look at CoZweat and then at Zwift. Zwift has been designed without decent tool support, CoZweat (and EXR) with, and it shows. EXR actually deliberatly simplifies the image (is actually more work) to guarantee decent compatibility across devices and platforms. So from a GUI perspective, rowing might actually be in a much better position then cycling.

And course design can do a lot in the social interaction part. In EXR we have the Boston courses, where the two core ones are 14.5K and 20K long, and some shorter variations. There you can row for an hour and never see anyone. Nice for gathering my thoughts about the world, but not a social affair.

Henley is totally different. It includes a waterfall and campsite for fun. And all courses keep encountering each other and often share parts of the track. There you encounter people at least every five to ten minutes. You start to recognise people. When I join friends to row, I often end up at one of the Henley routes, they are brilliant. I often encounter the same people for or five times in a rowing session, which is fun in itself. In some cases I overtake the same people twice, as they have the shorter route and they the longer route.

Lake Bled is in the middle there. It is relatively small, but I often encounter the same people twice, as they take the short route and I take the long one around.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

August 31st, 2023, 1:34 am

Software like this just has to hit a critical mass of users and it just snowballs from there on in.

For me RowPro was never about the graphics, it was an awesome training tool for 12 years. Unfortunately I think I was wrong however, for most people its ALL about the graphics.

I agree you need some critical mass, but that isn't defined by thousands of people. For me, it is about seeing others on the water, it might be five people I see pass twice. Just something to see, trigger my curiosity and move on.

24x7 full load isn't that important in that sense. For me on workdays it is the 16:00 to 18:00 CET slot, which is popular in Europe, and the 20:00 to 22:00 CET slot, which is popular among US and Canadians. Outside these times, I don't care what happens. You see waves of rowers at certain times.

Thanks to you both for the deep dive here. My experience with interactive online like Peloton or Zwift is similar to what JaapvanE suggest - those in my immediate vicinity are the most relevant to my social engagement and feeling of "we're all in this suffering together" whether they are known or unknown. Those on the horizon less so unless/until they fall into our gravitational orbit.

Organizing online seems to be a different dynamic - you are bringing an established community/social group with you. These can also form over time with random people if everyone's patterns and pace align. I'd say Peloton did not tap into this team concept - you can't organize and manage your own team on their platform like in Zwift.

I also think athletes enjoy both 'go-it-alone in my zone' training to focus on their performance and competitive team or group training/racing to add social motivation and camaraderie, but feel both modalities require different venues. For solo endurance workouts I want to feel like I am outdoors (EXR?), but for more intense training or racing, whether by myself against others or on a team against other teams, I could care less what the environment looks like as I am solely focused on the numbers and interaction with the others like relative positioning, their stats compared to mine, etc. (Zwift/ErgRace) and prefer a simpler interface as it reduces the cognitive overhead.

Aquaman wrote: ↑

August 31st, 2023, 6:28 am

, but for more intense training or racing, whether by myself against others or on a team against other teams, I could care less what the environment looks like as I am solely focused on the numbers and interaction with the others like relative positioning, their stats compared to mine, etc. (Zwift/ErgRace) and prefer a simpler interface as it reduces the cognitive overhead.

Maybe you could give a try to ErgometerSpace (online). Can also be used as android app but i personally prefer online version as it is updated more frequently than app version. I mainly use ErgData and for every Just Row -sessions i enter Real Time loop (have done over 2.5 Million meters on Loop since it was launched in Feb this year). But Loop lacks of some stats i want to see during rowing sessions. You can choose a lot of variables to choose from (called widgets), and can keep it simple by restricting amount of widgets shown, if that is what you prefer.

Races against other rowers should be possible in real time, single rowers or teams (max nr of rowers in one team is 8, IIrc). There is also record -widget which allows you to record your session stroke by stroke and you can then save session and replay it later. Should also be able to share recorded sessions to other rowers so they can then race against later. Not sure how all these is actually done, since i seem to be the only rower, at least in public room (Viking, there are two other public rooms available Orca and Triton). The "Viking" is the one i row in, usually 6 days a week, around 1630–2100 o'clock Finnish (Helsinki) Time (EEST, UTC/GMT +3 hours,) 1-2 hours at a time,

You can also do your own route on googlemaps or download one from web and then see your "boat" icon on the map, i think that is also case with races where you would then see all the rowers/teams on the map racing against each other. But as said not been able to test that. There is a guide how to do your own route, it was quite easy and i managed to do couple of my own routes of the places where i used to jog alot when i was still young and pretty (nowadays just pretty). Lately mostly used London Marathon route which, i think, i downloaded from London Marathon official site, not sure if the latest actual LM route is still the same. But usually have my boat and paceboat (2:08) on the map. That works fine for steady sessions then i might adjust the paceboat if i do some harder session (paceboat can be adjusted by the 1/1000 of a second, and even previous session from ErgSpaces logbook can be used as a paceboat ("just row" -sessions are not saved on the logbook and not fully supported in general)

ErgometerSpace do have some bugs, haven't seen any critical though to stop me using it in addition to ErgData. So, i have ErgData connected to PM5 via Bluetooth and mostly (these days) i am looping on ErgData's Real Time Loop. And then my laptop connected to PM5 with printer cable and using ErgometerSpace via browser (Vivaldi, all chromium based browser should be supported, IME not recommending Edge as it tends to mess up widgets setting for some reason, by resetting then after closing Edge) As Loopers know you can't see other rower's data (like HR, SPM, DF etc.) in ErgData. Until Concept gets these added to the Loop, it would be nice to see fellow Loopers' values in ErgometerSpace while Looping.

ErgometerSpace is free to use (and developer has stated that it is "a fun hobby/freetime project" and it will stay that way also in the future. Seems to be very nice guy and listens to user suggestions. Lately there was an update that allows you to upload your session directly to Concept2 Logbook but that does not (yet) support all the details you get when you upload directly from Ergdata (like HR plot, Split stats etc). That's the main reason i've kept using ErgData as my "main app" and been using ErgometerSpace for all the nice features it have during the session.

Here is screen capture of my recent session
https://1drv.ms/i/s!ApCPg7-AqbvVgpFDcPd ... A?e=aCNePN

https://ergometer-space.org
(i have very entry level PC, with intergated graphic card and slower CPU, so the VR widget is obviously no go (tested and got like 1 frame(minute). It is mentioned on the site that VR widget is very resource hog and in most cases should be closed (so can not be seen in my screen capture, link above)

Thanks for the tip on ErgometerSpace. Looks promising, and your in depth endorsement is compelling...
I like the simplicity of the racing track view. Looks PC or browser based, which is fine, but I'd rather use PM5s BLE linked to mobile phone apps. More scalable, adaptable and convenient.

If i wasn't clear enough Ergometerpace can also be used as app (Android phone/tablet), actually app (on 10" tablet) is what i used several months before i discovered the advantages of using it via browser (in my case more space for widgets , especially for googlemap widget. Like said you can choose your widgets as you wish). And even with browser it can connect to PM5 not only with cable but also with Bluetooth connection.

Thanks again. I found a version in the Apple App Store - will give it a try. Says last update was 2 years ago which may present issues, but it also appears to be a PWA build so that might make sense.