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ERG RACE APP
Posted: June 24th, 2023, 7:20 am
by MNW
Hi all,
I set up three races for this morning.
The first one worked really well but the others would not progress to the warm up properly.
I logged out and back in but it just would not work.
I love the concept of this erg racing app/site built seems very temperamental.
I will try again soon but apols to those who were sat there today waiting to go and it would not work.
Ian
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: June 24th, 2023, 8:14 am
by stevegaspars
No worries about the failed races. Reminds me of my attempts about a month ago, but since the updates my stuff has been running pretty well i think.
Make sure all your competitors are using the latest ErgRace online, it was updated just recently.
I recommend contacting C2 though the 'Support' link in the ErgRace admin and report issues and bugs, as opposed to the multiple other channels. I believe they appreciate the feedback.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 8th, 2023, 12:13 pm
by yonderbob
I set up and ran one last week that went flawlessly. An invitational with 4 participants. This week i set up a public one that was a total bust. Both were set to run automatically from the server but today's race glitched out almost immediately after the "time to warm up" message appeared.
It'll be great once it's working right! (or once I know how to work it right!)
bw
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 8th, 2023, 10:32 pm
by stevegaspars
Was your competition the Devil's Whip? I use my public competition at different times, every day, and i haven't had an issue with races starting for a long while. The last time it failed was due to network connectivity, and the race started before that sorted itself out. I tend to join my races within 15 minutes of them starting however.
The competition daemon process is supposed to auto start within 15 minutes of the race time. It's a server process that shuts down after a certain amount of inactivity to conserve resources. It needs time to restart before it can auto-add and auto-start races. Sometimes if there isn't enough time for it to wake up, races will fail. I think mine run fairly reliably because the process would be running for maybe 20 hours a day.
As i mentioned to the OP, you should click the ergrace support link in the admin web interface and email them with the specifics of your failed race. They log everything, so they can go back and determine what happened.
Steve
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 15th, 2023, 1:07 pm
by yonderbob
I've tried running 4 races so far. both of the ones that were "by invitation" ran flawlessly, Both of the public races failed. The public races appear to be progressing correctly, countdown, Sit Ready, etc., and then when the green GO light comes on - the race disappears. I have sent comment to the support folks. Yes, mine was The Devil's Whip.
thanks for the feedback!
Bob
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 15th, 2023, 3:12 pm
by Carl Watts
I have to say its sounding worse than Concept 2's "E-Row" that we were using way back in 2000.
I got them to delete the last race scheduled on the server because there was nobody left using it.
To be honest guys, things have really moved on from those same little yellow boats on a blue background. EXR and the virtual loop look like the place to be going forward.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 15th, 2023, 6:24 pm
by stevegaspars
yonderbob wrote: ↑July 15th, 2023, 1:07 pm
when the green GO light comes on - the race disappears
That's never ever happened to me. Once entries close it's always worked flawlessly. I helped C2 tech support sort an issue that was only happening in ErgRace, which apparently only cropped up on 3rd Gen PM5's. The amount of variables in a functioning system is probably higher than we all think.
Carl Watts wrote: ↑July 15th, 2023, 3:12 pm
same little yellow boats on a blue background. EXR and the virtual loop look like the place to be going forward.
There's nothing wrong with little yellow boats in a race app. You're not there for the scenery.
My problem with the virtual loop for racing is the it's simply not designed for it, your argument about everyone having super accurate timepieces nowadays to start racing doesn't stack up - there is still the lag of both the human side and the internet side which isn't compensated for. The vloop might work ok for race pieces over 5k, but anything less is too inaccurate. As for EXR, well, it's fine if you subscribe. ErgRace, you can't argue with free.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 15th, 2023, 7:26 pm
by Carl Watts
Doesn't matter what software you use there is a latency delay so time is always affected if you have people from all over the world.
From memory you can see the actual latency in Erg Race, it can get pretty bad. If you couple a "Race Start" with the latency it was up to 1 second using RowPro.
In the end I have a setup using two PM5's on the single Erg. One just runs RowPro for the "Scenery" while the other is pre-set and independent for the distance and runs ErgData.
The ErgData result is always faster.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 15th, 2023, 9:32 pm
by stevegaspars
The latency shouldn't matter. ErgRace, in fact any software, should be querying the lag free timepiece on every machine for where competitors are in a race. Competitors could start 5-10 seconds apart, or more, and it should make no difference to who's time is faster to win the race. I presume this is what is happening in ErgRace, since i can finish the race on the PM5, and a couple of seconds later, the boat icon 'jumps' over the line.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 16th, 2023, 2:17 am
by JaapvanE
Carl Watts wrote: ↑July 15th, 2023, 7:26 pm
Doesn't matter what software you use there is a latency delay so time is always affected if you have people from all over the world.
From memory you can see the actual latency in Erg Race, it can get pretty bad. If you couple a "Race Start" with the latency it was up to 1 second using RowPro.
I agree that a consistent latency across the board isn't an issue. The issue is when latency for one person is different from another due to network difference. I do about two friendly grouprows a week in EXR and typically I am the paceboat in one of the four pace groups (typically around 5 people in my pace group). We typically start at an agreed time, which should be the same everywhere as EXR can display a clock as well, which is based on the local smartphone time. What I notice is that distances are maintained well (I typically see people drop off at the 6K, 10K and 15K markers where I expect them to) but timing is problematic. People with a good internet connection and similar distance (Germany, Netherlands, etc.) start at quite similar times. However, we have some New Zealand and South African rowers, and they typically start a lot later due to latency.
This isn't an issue for a friendly row. But when people want to race head-to-head and interact (accelerating when people close in on a sprint), this becomes problematic as they react to something much too late. In a race, this could even lead to people seeing rower A finish first, and Rower B winning because the latency started him later and he did keep up with the other boats, making his time shorter.
I actually don't know how Zwift and RowPeo fixed this, if at all.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 16th, 2023, 2:24 am
by JaapvanE
stevegaspars wrote: ↑July 15th, 2023, 9:32 pm
Competitors could start 5-10 seconds apart, or more, and it should make no difference to who's time is faster to win the race. I presume this is what is happening in ErgRace, since i can finish the race on the PM5, and a couple of seconds later, the boat icon 'jumps' over the line.
The issue is that people want to react to each other. When I race you, and you accelerate, I want/must sprint along to stay competitive. When people really race each other, you wan't to be able to react to what the other is doing. That makes a 2K race between 6 people different from 6 individual 2K timed sprints: the strategy of racing each other instead of just the clock.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 16th, 2023, 5:22 am
by stevegaspars
JaapvanE wrote: ↑July 16th, 2023, 2:24 am
people want to react to each other
Absolutely. If it's 15 seconds difference that totally affects the feel of the race. It doesn't affect the result. Realistically, unless something has gone terribly wrong, it shouldn't take more than 3 seconds for a internet packet to do a round trip around the world.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 22nd, 2023, 8:14 pm
by yonderbob
I tried it again today. I had one Invitational and one public race set up. Neither worked. Only one of the participants, who was on the erg next to me in the studio, actually was able to run the invitational. I had 3 of us in the studio trying it out. The 2nd, public race, none of us were able to join in spite of being properly registered. the race proceeded with two participants who were elsewhere in the world and even though the screens froze and we couldn't see the boats moving at all, they both finished and showed up in the results page.
My $0.02 worth? this app just ain't ready for prime time. I really like the idea, but support tells me they are still working on it and hopefully will release a more robust (or user friendly?) version later in the year.
Bob
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 22nd, 2023, 8:31 pm
by stevegaspars
yonderbob wrote: ↑July 22nd, 2023, 8:14 pm
Neither worked.
Are all your firmwares and apps up to date? What generation of the PM5 are the machines using (there are 4)? To be fair, they really haven't had enough people using it to iron the bugs out.
If any of my race times fit in with your schedule, feel free to try them. I have had no real trouble, but i've not had any feedback from anyone else who may have.
Re: ERG RACE APP
Posted: July 26th, 2023, 10:18 am
by Aquaman
JaapvanE wrote: ↑July 16th, 2023, 2:17 am
Carl Watts wrote: ↑July 15th, 2023, 7:26 pm
Doesn't matter what software you use there is a latency delay so time is always affected if you have people from all over the world.
From memory you can see the actual latency in Erg Race, it can get pretty bad. If you couple a "Race Start" with the latency it was up to 1 second using RowPro.
I agree that a consistent latency across the board isn't an issue. The issue is when latency for one person is different from another due to network difference. I do about two friendly grouprows a week in EXR and typically I am the paceboat in one of the four pace groups (typically around 5 people in my pace group). We typically start at an agreed time, which should be the same everywhere as EXR can display a clock as well, which is based on the local smartphone time. What I notice is that distances are maintained well (I typically see people drop off at the 6K, 10K and 15K markers where I expect them to) but timing is problematic. People with a good internet connection and similar distance (Germany, Netherlands, etc.) start at quite similar times. However, we have some New Zealand and South African rowers, and they typically start a lot later due to latency.
This isn't an issue for a friendly row. But when people want to race head-to-head and interact (accelerating when people close in on a sprint), this becomes problematic as they react to something much too late. In a race, this could even lead to people seeing rower A finish first, and Rower B winning because the latency started him later and he did keep up with the other boats, making his time shorter.
I actually don't know how Zwift and RowPeo fixed this, if at all.
Latency is often the culprit. Regatta app's RaceTrack racing functionality works well when everyone is in an erg room together on the same WiFI connection point, but the virtual participants can be jumpy mainly because of their source connection speed. Same for ErgRace. I have not used EXR or RowPro in an erg room setting yet, but assume the same (good in room, so-so doing virtual w/global participants). Best advice is to have everyone find the best connection they can.