Need advice on apps and possible pm5 upgrade

[jliddil]

Zwift has a free trial and when that runs out it still has 25km a month free that doesn't expire so you can still get a row or two in.

I row 21K a day so that is not going to fly

[JaapvanE]

If you want great graphics then move to Zwift and interface to it with your phone using the RowedBiker App.

...

I don't ever see a bit of rowing software getting as good as Zwift, far more cyclists happy to pay monthly and their development team must be huge in comparison.

This is total nonsense as the law of the inhibiting lead comes in. Zwift's base was developed in 2014 and AFAIK, much rendering is done with their own rendering. So only a bunch of indoor bikers is paying for Zwifts rendering. EXR actually uses a commercial gaming engine (Unity, see https://unity.com/) to render worlds, which is also used for cinamatic movies, etc., leapfrogging such an out-dated approach. Unity is used to render games like Call of Duty and other highly popular games. Litterally billions are poored into this game engine every year as many games are using it and over 5200 developers are working on it on Unity's end (let alone on the customer side, where customers share game components among each other).

Only issue is the number of worlds, where Zwift has 11 and EXR currently has 3.

[JaapvanE]

I row 21K a day so that is not going to fly

That is impressive.

I don't know about RowPro, but EXR has the Boston (Head of the River Charles) route, which is just under 21K long. They offer a 7 days + 1 extra training free trial (see https://exrgame.com/blog/new-free-trial for details on when the trial starts). You might give that a try.

[Carl Watts]

So you think the EXR graphics are better than Zwift ? you are joking mate its not even close.

I run a script that automatically runs through all 9 of the camera views in Zwift every 15 seconds while with a pace rider its nothing short of amazing. Largest group ever today because of the holidays, 181 people in a single peloton. The 60 minute ride fly's by, 60 minutes on the rower is a slog.

Sorry but the rowing options are never going to be as good as Zwift, even if the graphics were a match you cannot get the variety of scenery from on the water.

Hey RowPro has been great motivation for me for over 10 years, I'm not complaining it has been an incredible journey but its never going to hit what Zwift can offer you just have to be realistic.

Economies of scale, its literally 1000 to 1 unfortunately. Its a real shame but you basically cannot get rowers online in the numbers needed.

If you want to use Zwift unlimited then pay the monthly sub.

[JaapvanE]

Sorry but the rowing options are never going to be as good as Zwift, even if the graphics were a match you cannot get the variety of scenery from on the water.

Why not? Zwift burns a lot of development hours keeping up with Google/Apple/Microsofts API changes, while Unity does that for Zwift. In the nineties one would all build it yourself and burn a ton of development hours, current generation rightfully thinks we are old fools and simply combine decent platforms with good templates and be done in a minute. Its the new school of working that allows for a much more effective development. As a commercial software architect I can tell you, the difference in economics and effectiveness is huge.

The community realizes there aren't roo many rowers, so we frequently organize joined rowing sessions through the EXR discord channel. In the community we are discussing to add Discord voice to these rows.

And you can add a lot of different sceneries. I used to use Kinomap, and I loved the Amsterdam and Gent canals, row around a tropical island, etc. As EXR also simulates fish, and you can already row against a shark, I'd like to row along with dolphins.

[Carl Watts]

Being on the water is the limitation so for starters that's flat an level unless you intend to start rowing over waterfalls for fun.

If you have spent time on Zwift you really appreciate the graphics and I would probably take back what I have been saying for years and that is the graphics don't really matter. Fact is they really didn't matter to me and RowPro was pretty good back in like 2000's and was a big step up from E-Row but it simply did not evolve fast enough. The problem with rowing is that people want to row on their own and DO NOT want to join others online because they see it as racing all the time. For some reason Cyclist have a totally different mindset which is why I think software for rowing will never fly really.

A combination of things really, you just have to face the facts if rowing software has not already hit a critical mass it never will.

[JaapvanE]

If you have spent time on Zwift you really appreciate the graphics and I would probably take back what I have been saying for years and that is the graphics don't really matter.

That's why the step to a platform like Unity is so important. These guys can deliver cinematic quality environment rendering with the touch of a button. These guys invest billions every year in improving the rendering and improving developers efficiency in creating worlds. Rowing apps are pretty simple static environments to design (as is Zwift), so it is pretty easy to create new worlds with high quality in a limited time.

With EXR you see they start optimising rendering parameters now: improving the skyline appearance, using cinematic Depth of Field effects to make it more lifelike. For them it is a simple parameter where the biggest job is to find the right setting, but for us users it is a world if difference.

The problem with rowing is that people want to row on their own and DO NOT want to join others online because they see it as racing all the time.

That is not my experience. AFAIK, last group row last month we had over 100 people in the water on a 1.6K circle. A bit too crowded for my taste, but fun nonetheless. Some row a 2K, some a 15K, but no head-to-head racing needed, just a lot of friendly traffic. In steady state rowing, I often encounter people with more or less the same pace, so we row along. Last month I rowed next to an American for over 5K. Only downside is that you can't talk to each other (yet), but a simple Discord integration might fix that (the channel is already there).

A combination of things really, you just have to face the facts if rowing software has not already hit a critical mass it never will.

I don't know. I think attractiveness of the GUI is important, and I think that EXR nailed it (their current HUD design is much better/subtle than the Zwift designs I see). I've seen much worse products become huge successes.

[Carl Watts]

Zwift is USD$16.99 a month you cannot go wrong with that, its less than a packet of cigarettes over here.

[JaapvanE]

Zwift is USD$16.99 a month you cannot go wrong with that, its less than a packet of cigarettes over here.

EXR is 9,99 a month. But I think the topic starter should try what he likes best in his rowing, especially since he is doing long pieces I guess some meaningfull distractions are important.

[JaapvanE]

The problem with rowing is that people want to row on their own and DO NOT want to join others online because they see it as racing all the time. For some reason Cyclist have a totally different mindset which is why I think software for rowing will never fly really.

Case in point: today two group rows were organized through the Discord group by some members for a one hour row (one at 10CET, one at 16:00 CET) to help people earn their one hour EXR badge (a monthly challenge). The pace is predetermined: so no racing, just chatting via Discord, rowing along and cheering people to the finish. Seems that RowPro gathers a different crowd than EXR does...

[mitchel674]

The problem with rowing is that people want to row on their own and DO NOT want to join others online because they see it as racing all the time. For some reason Cyclist have a totally different mindset which is why I think software for rowing will never fly really.

Case in point: today two group rows were organized through the Discord group by some members for a one hour row (one at 10CET, one at 16:00 CET) to help people earn their one hour EXR badge (a monthly challenge). The pace is predetermined: so no racing, just chatting via Discord, rowing along and cheering people to the finish. Seems that RowPro gathers a different crowd than EXR does...

I haven't tried EXR yet, but I have been a Rowpro user for the past 4 years. From my perspective, there are two different types of rows on Rowpro. Some set up the rows for a distance and others create a row for time. I will only join a row set up for a specific time. I'm a slow rower, but I do enjoy using Rowpro and getting out there with others. A timed row is not competitive for me. It may push me a bit to catch specific rowers, but we are all out there for a specific set time. The distance pieces are problematic. Why make everyone wait for me to finish? No fun really for anyone involved. I enjoy a bit of a chat at the end when we all finish at the same time.

A third type of rowpro row just came to mind. A chap named Bill would set up a handicapped 5k race. Knowing your typical pace, each person would delay their start accordingly so that we would all finish at near the same time. This made for some exciting rows with many participants. I've not seen this in a long time but would join if available.

[Carl Watts]

The main problem with rowing apps is that its never going to have the numbers online.

Also a problem is that its very time zone dependant and if you work full time it can be pretty hopeless.

Now I'm no longer working full time I can get on Zwift at 10-12am and there can be 10,000 people online and riding. As you move through the day you can see the nationality of the riders change. 10-12am in New Zealand and you get a whole load of Americans and Canadians online.

Don't get me wrong, I loved RowPro for years but for one reason or another I have moved to the Wattbike and Zwift.

[JaapvanE]

The main problem with rowing apps is that its never going to have the numbers online.

You are repeating yourself. And who cares? Unlike bikers who like to clutter together in a peleton, I like to see water, ducks, bridges and an occasional rower. I hate canals that look like the HORC with boats everywhere. Encountering people is nice, feeling you are on a crowded highway is bad.

And to be honest, I tried Zwift and hated it. ORM connects directly to Zwift with its biker profile, so I tried it several times. As a dutchman, most of my friends are on a bike and Zwifting in winter to keep in shape. In summer, they all play outside. But I could never play along. Those guys on a bike can accelerate much faster, and easily add another hour if they feel like it. As a rower, I never add another hour to a session. And aside the cluttered GUI, I hate the fact that I row and my avatar is in the mountains without a drop of water in sight. Looking at another avatars ass. Sorry, my avatar should resemble what I'm doing.

Also a problem is that its very time zone dependant and if you work full time it can be pretty hopeless.

In a 6K row I typically encounter 2 to 3 real people. And my location and working hours put me in odd times in most timezones. There are some people who row a 21K or 42K daily, so I meet them a lot (see https://log.concept2.com/team/17859/vtc/2023). If I miss them, or like to be sure, I can release the bots as well, which will stay around me in different paces.

And about critical mass. Most people believe things are impossible until it is done by the guy who thinks it is possible.

[GlennUk]

Most people believe things are impossible until it is done by the guy who thinks it is possible.

^^^^ this

FWIW I used to use Rowpro, enjoyed it, but its compatibility issues RowPro/Erg data and the lack of effective support did it for me.

Im not sure will bother with either Zwift or any other app for the foreseeable future, im focussed on my metrics, but for others i can see the attraction, many of my peers on FB groups are interested in such things, its one of the reasons that many do not buy a C2, but something with a big screen on it and training plans behind it, all accompanied by pretty videos.

My wife for example uses our Nordic Track and what motivates her is being bale to run in different places, if she was into rowing she would buy her rower with that in mind.

I cant say id spend money on getting videos of whatever river it was, but thats just me, many do and an app that allows them to do that on any rowing machine will no doubt sell imho. If its too costly to make it wont get made, but reading Jaapvans posts about the way technology/software is developing, the quality of graphics is increasing signfciantly, assuming he/they are right on costs, then its likleyt o make the application will become much more widespread.