Virtual reality rowing

[Cyclist2]

I've been rowing and (mostly) erg'ing for almost 30 years. Having some form of visual motivator, other than movies or baseball games, would be great. There was a VHS video produced years ago called "Power Ten". They set up a camera in the bow seat of an 8 and a 4x looking back at the rowers toward the stern, and then rowed on the Charles River. There were several workouts of varying difficulties and stroke rates. I loved it! I think I wore out the tape long before it got too repetitive and boring. (I see Amazon still sells a DVD, called "Rowing Machine Companion" but it looks like a poor reproduction of the original VHS). I always wondered why this format wasn't expanded upon, with different venues, different workouts, etc.

I don't think I'd invest in a VR setup. Heck, I don't even have a laptop I can set in front of the erg to run RowPro on. I DO have a T.V. with a built in DVD player, however. Where are all the rowing GoPro users out there that can easily put out a much better quality video, do it quickly, and with a wider variety of rowing "experiences" to row with on simple TVs or smartphones? If you wanted to take it to the gym without all the headsets, laptops, or whatever, I'm sure viewing them on the small smartphone screen would be OK, it sure would be for me.

Keep it simple, make it easily available, inexpensive, and actually useful wherever you row. That will work better for more people than all the high tech "solutions". IMHO.

[Carl Watts]

I respect your opinion of a hard RowPro user. But i seriously cannot find any use case for that application in my rowing.
I say "racing", you say "training". How do you define training? I define it as a piece of activity with specifed target and structure, aimed to provide result.
I cannot understand, how RowPro could bring benefit to such training with its online feature?
Lets say i plan my piece of 10k row - target pace around 2:20, HR not higher than 140. I set up a row and what do i write in Oarbits? 2:20/140 for 10k?
I would need userbase similar to Zwift, in order to find a reasonable set of partners for my effort.

Lets further analyse assuming i accept any training partner. What is the result? We start together and most of us row alone after 5 minutes max. What is the point of even loging online? And paying money for that?

Lets analyse even further - i am able to find partners wiling to do my pace - what is the benefit? Seeing figures on my PC for 45 minutes? First time it will be fun to check theirs stats and compare but then what? What do i do with these values?

Free market is regulating itself - we have big C2 forum - all of the users are dedicated enough to commit to some platform. How many of them use RowPro? There is the answer - it simply is addresing very specific user base.

I understand your point about fragmentation but you are overestimating loyalty - its not like you wouldnt jump ship to some other platform yourself, if it provided good coverage, right?

I could use RowPro if it had IOS app, tcx export and some idea to make online rowing work for my needs. And i just need to have some fun during endless hours of working out.

I think you didnt catch my point about HR - i would try to PACE people, basing on their HR - you go crazy fast but at 140BPM, i go slow with 138BPM - we can at least see each other
What would we do with that "visibility"? - no idea

Your so far off the mark in every respect its not worth even trying to provide an explanation.

Its perhaps a little sad that Digital Rowing spent so much time developing a Mac version rather than going straight to iOS and Android, then again its also sad that Concept 2 didn't have Bluetooth in the PM4 like 10 years ago. If both of these had happened the current landscape would be totally different. As it is it will take up to another 10 years for the PM5 to phase in before it really takes off.

[kris-o]

This is sad, because i was counting on the explanation. I normally swim and cycle. Sometimes run. Rower became part of my life, together with 2 small kids and constant lack of free time to go outside. I think there are tons of guys like me (go see Garmin forums or Suunto or Polar)

Bluetooth on PM5 is stable enough in order to provide good link for throwing data. I use it daily, together with ANT+ HR strap. No major issues.
Sometimes it will get stuck or freeze on me, but that sort of things will happen in every piece of h/w and s/w.
Do not cross out RowPro guys - PM5 is on the market for some time. Same for IOS and Android. They are probably already working on their apps.

This is crazy World 2.0 - if you do not move forward, you go backwards. I am telco engineer, work in mobiles for quite some time - i had such big respect for Nokia and Ericsson. They basically started this whole cellular thing and look what happened to them.

[Carl Watts]

The way of the future is easy to see, simply a huge Android LCD TV on the wall and your PM5 links to it via Bluetooth and RowPro runs as an Android App.

You sit on the rower and use the TV remote to navigate and click OK for ready and then wait for the Online row to start.

Pretty simple, the problem is the hardware platforms are now evolving so fast because of the huge money and resources behind them due to massive profits in sales but the little App developers for the likes of a very niche market like concept 2 rowers only are struggling to keep up with the changes in the OS let alone add more features people request in their product.

The guys at Digital Rowing cannot keep up, each OS version release stays on the market what seems like half the time of the previous version. Look at Windows XP, its been around forever and many people are still using it and despite Microsoft saying they have stopped supporting it, I still get updates for it. Problem is RowPro no longer works on XP and so the cycle begins.

The hardware to do it is already here for the ultimate visual rowing set-up at home, the small developers for the Apps cannot keep pace with giant companies making new hardware.

Unfortunately the days of you sitting in the middle of a white room with nothing but the rower and a full 3D image being projected all around you are still a little way off but I would still say a 60 or 65" LCD TV on the wall right in front of you will be a pretty immersing experience for most people. If costs drop you will be able to move to dual screens and then with a triple head video card move to 3 screens for a near 180 Degree landscape but lets not get ahead of ourselves.

If you enjoy the online rowing you actually find the graphics quality is only a small part of the whole package. Personally I have never really complained about it, there are far more pieces of the puzzle to solve and get working 100% first, the high end graphics can come later, they are "Nice" but not a "Necessity" for the success of the software.

[kris-o]

I, personally, would invest in IOS development - Android is too fragmented and too pirated to give revenue.
Customer base in IOS is much more "mature" and used to pay for content.
Depends who you want to target - if you aim at people that own Concept 2 rowers, you can safely assume that they have money to own Apple device and money to pay for an app.
Thats how i see it, and many of my friends in s/w development went to IOS for similar reasons...even hard core Unix users

If i would be to set up my future rowing den, i would go for a projector - much cheaper than TV. You can buy 1080p 3D projector for a price of 40inch TV.
You can buy short throw projector and shoot 100inch from 2 feet distance.

I understand that RowPro "comes from" desktop, but these days are way behind us - now we have "cloud" and platform-independent services.
Who says you cannot make OS-agnostic solution and simply launch it from any device? This is all possible now.

I, personally, like the fresh approach to fitness, presented by the OP in this thread - virtual classes? rowing, being new spinning?
Sounds bit sci-fi and overly optimistic but, hey, lets give them a chance.
Lets not forget, that many people simply row to burn calories or get tired or sweat. In my opinion - if you get to these people, you have huge user base and potential.

Imagine Zwift-Like lake - you login, look around and choose some friend to row - "hey, lets take this river and row 10k to next lake".
This is already happening for cyclists.
Crazy times ahead

[jackarabit]

Cyclist 2 makes a good argument for actual video shot by GoPro cams mounted stern and bow on a shell or sculling boat piped to a large TV. Stephen Walker, a Brit who "infests" Utube with infomercials for his sculling instruction books, does a great job of this and, to give him his due, his historical gloss on sculling and river wisdom is pretty good too. I would mute audio if I wanted this simply as eye candy to erg by. Certainly a lot of similar footage taken from MTBs and suitable for projecting in front of gym spinners.

Reality simulacra don't have to use solely visual stimuli. I think I'd rather listen to the sounds of oar collars shifting against locks and blades on feather. Walker has a good deal of that also and I listen when he tires of voice over. I also never tire of watching pace or watts on the monitor--a virtual reality expressed from the yanking of chain.

[Cyclist2]

One parting post on this. I sometimes use cycling DVDs when I'm on the erg. It's easy to adapt cadence to stroke rate, and intervals, power, and endurance all cross over nicely. Here is a site that has some great cycling DVDs and downloads: http://epicplanet.tv/ The same could be done with rowing during standard workouts by crews all over the world, just take that GoPro on the row, and have some studio smooth it up, put power/stroke rate/training zone or other dashboards on the screen and it would be great!

[kris-o]

Great ideas. I also agree that even seeing the water and boat would be good enough. I would prefer to listen to the water + maybe some audiobook to keep me entertained.
If you add target and actual values - even better

[Carl Watts]

I understand that RowPro "comes from" desktop, but these days are way behind us - now we have "cloud" and platform-independent services.
Who says you cannot make OS-agnostic solution and simply launch it from any device? This is all possible now.

Only technology wise NOT user base wise.

Sorry to have to tell you this but 80% of the Concept 2 monitors I repair are still the PM2 that finished in production in 2003. These are not able to connect to anything to give you any live simulation. A huge number of people are still using the older rowers.

Essentially what you think everyone should be using now will take 10 years to phase in. Also you really have to like something to pay for it, so many people think software these days should be for FREE so good luck pouring allot of money and time into something and expecting a big return.

I'm pretty sure if you asked Digital Rowing about RowPro you would find its more of a "Hobby" than a big profit "Business". Pete would have only got into it because his wife Pam was an ex-OTW rower. Had this combination not occurred I doubt there would be anything on the market right now and we could still even be trying to use E-Row !!!!

The first step would be to analyse why the uptake of RowPro has been so low, in particular the Live online rowing in relation to the total number of Ergs in the whole world.

I can give you a list but you also need to look at say the key differences between Cycling and Indoor Rowing.

[kris-o]

True that. I would guess that people using 13 years old monitors do not care much about VR, so we can safely ignore their existence in our discussion anyway - if they wanted something more/new, they would have upgraded to PM5 already, wouldn't they?


RowPro will probably never expand beyond a small hobby group of users, because the online rowing, it is providing, is boring and too much "2005". Simple.
After your explanation about the RowPro beginnings, i understand why. It was designed for the person seriously interested in rowing stats and having OTW background.

[Carl Watts]

Well perhaps you could start a discussion on why the cycling version is perceived as such a success story. Can you get on at any time of the day or night and find someone to ride with ?

I would be more interested in that, perhaps it would help people see why RowPro has not taken off. Its not boring, the problems are elsewhere.

A number of problems I see with the Concept 2 rower.

1. Your relying on integrating the monitor into your App. This doesn't happen with a bike, you buy completely separate hardware to stick the bike on it.
2. The indoor rower software has been held back by the monitor in a big way until the release of the PM5. The monitor needed Bluetooth years ago. I don't think people realise how much effort went into just getting the PC to communicate with the PM to enable getting RowPro working in the first place. The PM monitor firmware also had to be changed in V101 to even get it to work.
3. It doesn't matter how old your bike is your going to be up and running. My bike was made in 1984, its still going to work with the indoor gear to stick it on. Everyones going to have to buy a PM5 to get wireless.
4. Most cyclists still ride on the road and hence meet other people and also group ride. Word of mouth is going to help sell the product. Indoor rowers only chat on the forum and seldom meet. You discover someone your talking to has a rower in their basement completely by accident when they ask you what you do in your spare time or to keep fit.
5. It would appear that the vast majority of indoor rowers hate rowing with other people. This I suspect is an age thing as its taken up mostly by people over the age of 40 who have seriously lost their fitness and conditioning. All the younger people interested in rowing are OTW, generally competing OTW and not on the Erg. The age of people using the indoor rower is reflected on the annual meters board and they are OLD.
6. Elite OTW rowers show zero interest in using the Erg with anything like RowPro. It would of course be fantastic if they could turn up now and again, it doesn't matter how hard they kick your arse.
7. There is a huge gap between your Erg and a boat. There is no where near as much difference between your bike on a frame and your bike on the road.
8. There are far more cyclists worldwide than indoor rowers. I would hate to even have a guess at the ratio. If you took every single bicycle the numbers would be shocking, what 10,000:1 ? I'm picking that even those interested in road racing and get out in the weekends in their lycra would still be 100:1 so the potential market is HUGE for bike software.
9. Those people selling the indoor bike frames would also promote the software to value add their product. One could argue that Concept 2 should be promoting and even funding the development of the RowPro software to add value too and help sell the indoor rowers.

So looking at the big picture, your starting with a much smaller group of people, then take out those with the 13 year old hardware, the Elite rowers, the serious OTW rowers, those that don't like to row with others, those just not wanting to spend the money on a PC or software, those that try the trial version but have hardware issues and also find it too difficult to use, those that try is for a while and then just disappear, the people that think RowPro is all about racing and they are too slow, those that have never even heard of RowPro and believe me this is a huge number of people as I talk to everyone I fix a monitor for and they have never heard of it and what are you left with ? a small and very dedicated community of Online rowers who use RowPro year after year on a regular basis.

Personally I went through the 10 million lifetime meters a few months ago, all of it done online with RowPro and as much as I love RowPro you have to be realistic and also see the failings. Having said that all it needs is 3 or 4 times the current number of people who row online on a regular basis and it will be transformed. Amazingly we are talking perhaps only another 100 people !

RowPro is still by far the best product to be there when the hardware finally catches up and it flys. The younger people coming through are far more PC and tech savvy and expect a product like RowPro with even better graphics. Couple this with the PM5 opening up the market to Gym users and you just quadrupled the market size for RowPro as an iOS and Android App..

[Doc Scotty]

I agree that I would be more likely to use an app and a computer / TV than a headset. Biggest problem I can see with the headset is sweat, fogging up the screen and the weight. Take a look at Zwift for cycling. Great graphics, good feed back from the program to the bike to increase resistance, and fun to ride with others in a virtual reality. I think your concept is great and it would be fun to do some VR rowing, racing and games with others.

[afriedma]

I find that whenever I want to simulate rowing reality, I just put my erg in the shower stall and row under a cold shower.

[Bob S.]

I find that whenever I want to simulate rowing reality, I just put my erg in the shower stall and row under a cold shower.

Considering your location, your could just as well use it outdoors - especially next to the street so that passing cars going through puddles could add to it - simulating the wakes from passing motorboats.

[bisqeet]

I find that whenever I want to simulate rowing reality, I just put my erg in the shower stall and row under a cold shower.

Considering your location, your could just as well use it outdoors - especially next to the street so that passing cars going through puddles could add to it - simulating the wakes from passing motorboats.

Additionally a recording of a squeaky Cox shouting out random instructions. For best audio effects pipe the audio through some cheap speakers..don't forget to chew through the speaker wires, so that the audio is intermittent...