Concept2 Forum

Hi There,

I'm new here. I first met a Concept 2 a few years back at my local gym. I really liked rowing a lot and actually looked into buying one for home back then.
It's been several years since I have been regularly to the gym. Just started back again 3-4 weeks ago and I'm back on the rower.
Been thinking about one for home again. (I think it might be better for my wife than the treadmill, too) Doing some research I noticed a few more makes than I remember finding last time and was wondering if anyone tried different brands and how they came about choosing a Concept 2. (Also looking at the Kettler)
Hope this is the right place for this post!

Concept2 is the accepted standard of the rowing community. 99% of collegiate, high school, elite, masters and club programs use it. I have never looked to see what sort of community WaterRower or Kettler offer their users, but between these forums and the UK forums, there is a ton of support from everyone else, and a ton of information provided by a company that has had the best interests of the rowing community at heart for many, many years (between rowing machines and oars).

I cannot really tell you why the C2 is better than those other machines, it just is. I have never had any maintenance issues, they suffer extreme mistreatment in gyms and still work bloody fine. They will last for millions of meters and you will have a lot of friends if you stick around these forums.

And yes, a rowing machine is always better than a treadmill. No back/knee/ankle problems, it strengthens and tones many more muscles than the treadmill would.

Good luck in your purchasing decision!

bloomp wrote:I cannot really tell you why the C2 is better than those other machines, it just is.

Quite simply because it was the first of the air movement rowing machines, Concept2 hold the patent for the model A. The model B, C and D have all improved on the basic design (model E is just a model D/PM4 on an alternative frame).

All other rowing machines are a compromise because they're having to avoid infringing C2's patent which leads to the curious design changes like filling the flywheel with water and other odd ideas.

They also do strange things like simply counting strokes rather than measuring power dissipation with a tacho and a sophisticated computer (PM2/PM3/PM4).

How many of the others support the CSAFE gym equipment data protocol and from that the ability to do things like venue racing and online racing with RowPro? (At a guess that answer is close to none.)

Thanks so much for your responses. It's pretty easy to see that Concept 2 has set some kind of standard in the industry. I also know first hand how much more of a workout a rower gives over a treadmill.My wife has always have some minor back problems from time to time before she started the treadmill. I think she might consider a rower as being tougher on the back. But all of that is really secondary.

Being first in a design doesn't always make it better. I can respect Concept 2 for their enthusiasm for the sport and their apparent integrity to build a solid piece of equipment.

I don't consider a magnetic braking system a compromise or an inferior design and has claims of being extremely quiet. In the past when I used the Concept 2 in the gym as well as recently, I have never made use of any of the monitor features other than time rowed. I guess all those sophisticated features are helpful in tracking progress and all the online competition. I'm just looking for the health benefits I feel when rowing.

It's obvious to me that the Concept 2 has many fans on this site. I was just wondering if anyone had tried other rowers and what they thought of them.

BoB/335 wrote: I was just wondering if anyone had tried other rowers and what they thought of them.

While looking for a second-hand C2 to buy I used our neighbour' s Kettler Coach (2003 model I think). Did about 10 sessions on it, but it never won me over... Hard to explain why, it just didn' t feel right. Foodrests too wide apart, incline of the slide too steep... things like that, which added up to an uncomfortable feeling. Now I own a C2 C-model and am happy with it.

But as this is all quite subjectiv I can only recommend to try different brands yourself before you decide which one to buy.

One indoor-rower I would like to try is the Rowperfect, but I didn' t have the opportunity so far. It seems to be uncommon, at least in Germany.

BoB/335 wrote:
It's obvious to me that the Concept 2 has many fans on this site. I was just wondering if anyone had tried other rowers and what they thought of them.

You might also look into the Water Rower and RowPerfect. I know of some top-level coaches who prefer the Water Rower and RowPerfect to the Concept II. I have a WaterRower and have had a Concept II. I like them both. Concept II is the standard and if you are testing yourself against the competition that helps. The WaterRower is easier on your back and feels more like rowing. I don't know much about RowPerfect. I still use a Concept II whenever I need to, but during the good weather that is not very often. Nothing like being on the water...

I see Concept2 as a company with the same lack of vision for the future as the car maker General Motors. That same attitude of "If it's not broken why fix it" is going to cost C2 dearly in the future as it's competition eats into it's market. Look what happened to General Motors which kept on pumping out Yank tanks without looking to see what the rest of the world was doing and wanted. C2 could end up the same way.

After 20 years of being loyal to C2 I'm now going to sell up all my C2 equipment that I've accumulated over those years and change brands.

Last week I put in my forward order to "Rowperfect" which I believe have a superior product. Apparently the new model has just gone into production. They have been so overcome with orders that the first production run is already sold out. Hence I might still have a bit of a wait to go before I get it.

My C2 erg is connected to Rowpro which I've used for quite some time. However, I don't see Rowpro as a major selling point to stay with C2. It might be fun for "Gamer" types but it won't help you row any better than "Wii Super Mario at the Olympics" will. Rowperfect has superior technical rowing software to C2 anyway.

I don't see C2 coming out with anything new soon other than the usual cosmetic changes and monitor tweaks.

The GM analogy is simply wrong. CII makes a products, the slides, which is the benefit that RowPerfect claims. RowPerfect's product, while likely quite good, is not revolutionary.

What would a ground-breaking product entail?

- electro-magnetic resistance?
- internet connectivity, right out of the box?
- slide option, a device that could both be slide and fixed?
- better able to mirror an actual stroke?
- work for training as scull or crew?

For what it's worth, CII makes a fine product.

igoeja wrote:The GM analogy is simply wrong. CII makes a products, the slides, which is the benefit that RowPerfect claims. RowPerfect's product, while likely quite good, is not revolutionary.

What would a ground-breaking product entail?

For what it's worth, CII makes a fine product.

Have you ever tried a Rowperfect erg, either old or new version?
I have and was very impressed by it.

If people are happy with their C2 product then that's fine. However I'm not. My 20 years of expereinece in rowing tells me that I can do better. Like GM, C2 hasn't dared deviate from it's basic product.

The Dyno, Ski erg and tacky add on slides are certainly not ground breaking. The same old flywheel unit that they have been using for some 20 years is central to all these products. Not much R&D required there. Even reliability is now becoming questionable as components such as the monitors are made in China (my new PM4 stopped working after only 2 months use).

The product could be a lot better but C2 don't seem to be interested in developing it to the next level. I have a vision of where it should be even with the restrictions due to patents from other companies such as Rowperfect.

The erg is too damn heavy to be used effectively on the flat rails of the slides. The erg needs to be made lighter and the slides need to have a curve in the middle and become more incorporated into the basic design. More detailed and comprehensive technical software (like Rowperfect's) needs to be developed rather than just the gamer stuff like Rowpro. The noisy and harsh chain and sproket need to be replaced by a new belt drive system sourced from "Gates Belts" which supply Trek Bikes. Much smoother and quieter in operation plus no need for messy lubrication.

There is more but I'll stop there because sadly I think I'm wasting my time going through it. It's a lot easier to just simply buy another brand of erg, which is what I'm doing, rather than waiting in hope for C2 to progress to the next level.

First, I don't own a Concept2, yet. I use a Model C at my employers gym. 1994 vintage with ~20,000 KM. The guy they have do service is a joke.

Let me take a different view on the Concept2.

First comment about the PM4 being made in China is a non-arguement. All the large chip fab plants are in Asia. Most every PC part you buy is from Asia. It's a matter of quality. Do we have some really stats on PM4 failure rates? Anecdotal evidence won't do.

We could talk about MGs and Lucas electronics. Anyone familiar with MGs know how "reliable" the product made in England was.

Besides being innovative a product should be reliable. Looked around a bit and found nothing on the warranty of a Rowperfect. If the Concept2 doesn't change for the market the market will speak as they did to GM. How easy is a Rowperfect to service?

Look at NordicTrac. The made what was considered the best cross country ski machine. I have an older model and it's still in perfect condition. A real tank. They went under, got bought and the NordicTrac sold to today is crap.

All the software and bells and whistles are for motivation quite often. For me I am beyond much of that. More gadgets is more crap to break. At the same time I'm a self-professed geek who would love a PM4 with RowPro to pay with.

Let's look at the Concept2 from an exercise equipment stand point. I have a 20 year old Lifecycle that cost almost $800 at the time. A new Concept2 is $1000. My Elliptical trainer was $3000 and I can tell you parts and general PM service get pricey.

As a piece of exercise equipment the concept2 seems pretty rugged and easily repaired by the end user. Other high quality fitness is not so easily maintained.

Does an erg simulate OTW? I have no idea but I am not a water person even though I live in Connecticut and there seem to a be a good number of rowing clubs here. But to me it's like asking does a treadmill simulate running? I ran for years and can tell you a treadmill isn't running outdoors at all. I'd think you'd be hard pressed to find a world class road racer who does most of their training on a treadmill. On the other had when I met Michelle Guerette on vacation recently we talked about how much training she does on a concept2. 4 hours a day at least but then she can do a 1:38. Her arms were amazing.

Maybe the rowperfect will turn into the best erg. We will see. For the person who wants to stay fit and could careless about the water it seems to me the concept2 is pretty good device as compared too all the other home fitness equipment out there. But I guess it just depends.

Your comments "jliddil" are interesting as I'm also a keen cross country skier and have always wondered whatever happened to Nordic Trac. If my memory serves me correctly I believe it it first came out around the time the first C2s. I ended up buying a C2 and have upgraded to the latest models as they came out during the last 20 years. However over here it'll set you back over $2,000 for a C2.

The problem for me though is that due to my rowing experience, both on and off the water, I'm more particular in what a rowing machine should offer.

It has become frustrating for me to look at the way C2 have updated their product over those years. I know how to make it a much better product and have a vision of how it should look and function. However the changes that C2 have made to their product have been small and infrequent. It's still pretty much a product to appease the masses of gym user rather than a smaller more specific group such as on water rowers.

To this day I still can't understand why C2 don't introduce a more specific product for on water rowers to run alongside the current version which would cater for the gym market. No reason why you can't sell two different C2 models on the market. Just like GM could have sold a smaller, greener and more fuel efficient car along with it's Yank tanks. Then just let the market dictate which product continues to sell.

I was recently on a cruise and the gym had a couple of Schwin Windriggers with the belt drive. There was no setting for drag factor (felt like around 100 on a C2. The monitor was difficult to adjust. You could set a time and it would keep flipping between metrics. Or you could set it in "regatta" mode sort of like "pace boat" on a C2. No pacing per 500 meters or any distance except strokes per minute. And for a couple of workouts, the monitor would reset to zero before 5 minutes were lapsed. Non-rowers complain of no "resistence", but they mean versus poor technique (arms first) on a C2 with a damper set on 10. I did notice that at stroke rates above 25, the flywheel wasn't slowing down enough to give you the same feel at the catch as at lower ratings. The seat was terrible; soft, curve up with ripples that rub you butt.

I remember back in the early 90s, our local gym had some rowing machine with a color monitor like a small TV right above the chain. You could watch the pace boat and see a helicopter drop new rowers in or a shark eat rowers to reduce the number. It was a hoot. I'm 90% sure I had terrible technique, but I loved to sit and flay away on the thing. guess that model never caught on.

Yes C2 has set a standard and a mechanism that works fairly well and that in the main, I do not see competitors improving on. There is a rowing simulator by WinTech that mimics sweep or sculling. I tried it at a regatta once and it was pretty decent. But it's around $5000 so out of most indivudals and smaller clubs price range--would rather get a boat--or two for the same money. It could work nicely for a college program or large club as an on land teaching aid.

I remember that rower from the 90's.It was, in my gym, a Life Fitness Model with the color screen and races to follow your progress..little row boats etc.That was my introduction to erging.The poor rower sat covered in dust in the corner.I discovered it..began rowing every day and for hours watching the little boats on the screen.I was a Fitness Instructor/Personal trainer at that gym and made all my clients row.They hated it but turned to love it.It changed their bodies and their whole outlook on rowing.Oh the memories. I then found the Concept2 in a magazine ad and the rest is history.I have my own and am on my way to 18 million logged meters..real meters rowed..WAY more.Thanks for reminding me of this "old" time rower in the gym..

Pat

Rockin Roland wrote:
After 20 years of being loyal to C2 I'm now going to sell up all my C2 equipment that I've accumulated over those years and change brands.

Last week I put in my forward order to "Rowperfect" which I believe have a superior product. Apparently the new model has just gone into production. They have been so overcome with orders that the first production run is already sold out. Hence I might still have a bit of a wait to go before I get it.

Yeah. Good luck with that. Just out of curiosity, how much will a new RowPerfect set you back? I'm assuming that the monitor and software are still sold separately, and the price that I found online ($3,495 Australian) seems pretty steep compared to the Concept2 which comes complete with a monitor and logging software and RowPro being only $99.

I was wondering the same a few days ago, is there something better than the C2. I've come to the conclusion: probably not for me.

I have rowed on a C2, some cheap imitation and once on a waterrower. The waterrower also seems like a great rower to me. It was very quiet and I liked the feel. I have owned the cheap C2 imitation a couple of years and eventhough I haven't rowed constantly on it I always used it during injuries that prevented me playing soccer.

Being 42, rowing should be a good way to have a full body exercise without too much risks for injuries.
I have issues with motivation though. Having a rowing machine with a good monitor like the PM3/4 and also RowPro looks like a great combination to me. I like the "gaming" element and competition with a virtual rower. Statistics can also be a great motivator.
To be able to compare your PB with others also appeals to me. I have not found a forum like this for any other indoor rower as well.

Rowing on another rower might feel a bit better and could be more comparable to conditions on real water, but to be honest I don't care about that at all.

The construction of the C2 is very robust and if you want to sell it after a couple of years you will still get a high price for it.