upper body or lower body?

[tallguy]

I love the water. I was dragon boatting for several months but am not going to continue as I feel I'm too big for it. I'm 6'7" and 230lb. I tried kayaking which was pretty relaxing but didn't feel like it was working out any muscles too much and if I paddled harder, i'd probably fall in.

I'm very interested in rowing, but I've heard conflicting answers for which muscles it works out. Some say it'll mainly (70 - 80%) do your lower body while others say it's great at working out your upper body. I'm mainly interested in my upper body. Biceps, Triceps, Shoulders, Chest, Back, Abs. I weight lift at least 3 times a week and looking for a great cardio activity that can also help my upper body maintain it's muscle size or grow at the same time.

What do you guys think? Should I be looking for another activity instead of rowing?

[DavidA]

Welcome.
Rowing is a great cardiac workout. The majority of the power comes from your legs, but many muscle groups are involved. See http://www.concept2.com/us/training/muscles_used.asp. I wouldn't look for a lot of muscle growth, but strength and endurance increases.

David

[Steelhead]

I love the water. I was dragon boatting for several months but am not going to continue as I feel I'm too big for it. I'm 6'7" and 230lb. I tried kayaking which was pretty relaxing but didn't feel like it was working out any muscles too much and if I paddled harder, i'd probably fall in.

I'm very interested in rowing, but I've heard conflicting answers for which muscles it works out. Some say it'll mainly (70 - 80%) do your lower body while others say it's great at working out your upper body. I'm mainly interested in my upper body. Biceps, Triceps, Shoulders, Chest, Back, Abs. I weight lift at least 3 times a week and looking for a great cardio activity that can also help my upper body maintain it's muscle size or grow at the same time.

What do you guys think? Should I be looking for another activity instead of rowing?

From my own experience, if you use the highest drag factor, then you get a great upper and lower workout. I also strength train. At one time, I decided to erg for a few weeks instead of weight train just to see what would happen. After rowing each day for 20,000 to 30,000 meters, I went back to weight training and noticed that my bench and curls had actually improved. I now row and weight train, among other things. I use a model B at home and a C at the Y. The B has a greater drag factor than the C and I get a much better anaerobic workout with the B, but also an excellent aerobic work out as well.

I then decided to erg at a lower drag factor. I then experimented again, rowing at a lower drag factor (with a setting between 3 and 5) for a couple of weeks without weight training, and unfortunately rowing at a lower drag factor had the opposite result as rowing at the highest drag factor (with the setting at 10 for example): I lost upper body mass and my bench and curls suffered.

I find that erging before strength training as a warm up is excellent, and after strength training with weights erging for 10,000 meters or more has a great feel when you are already exhausted from power lifting and then get on the erg -- you can feel your biceps being worked, your legs, and your back -- the lats and traps especially, your abdominal, and at times your pecs. You will see an increase in strength and stamina using the erg along with strength training.

I definitely recommend cross-training with the erg. While the legs provide most of the power, the fact is that the upper body definitely gets an excellent work out. On your maximum lift day, get on an erg, set the lever at 10 (the drag factor will depend on the machine), and then row for a minimum of one hour using proper form without straps, and then you will appreciate what the erg can do for your strength training.

[tallguy]

Wow! Thanks for the great reply!

I wouldn't ever stop my weight training, the erg and the on-water rowing would be just a supplement to the weight training for cardio to get rid of some bf covering my abs. I'm worried if I use the erg or on-water rowing too often, it'll take away some muscle. I'd love to better define my already existing muscle or maintain though.

[Steelhead]

Wow! Thanks for the great reply!

I wouldn't ever stop my weight training, the erg and the on-water rowing would be just a supplement to the weight training for cardio to get rid of some bf covering my abs. I'm worried if I use the erg or on-water rowing too often, it'll take away some muscle. I'd love to better define my already existing muscle or maintain though.

If you don't want to lose muscle mass, then you need to limit your aerobic workouts to 30 minutes -- after 30 minutes the aerobic benefits drop off dramatically.

If you use the highest setting on the erg to row, then based on my experience you will not lose muscle mass -- you will gain definition.

However, it all depends on whether you are lifting for strength or for looks. Are you a power lifter or a body builder?

If you are a body builder, you know that when you get ready for a show to get cut you have to lose fat, which also means losing muscle. You get cut and look great, but I have found that my bench for example in the 400 lbs range drops to the 200 lbs range.

However, I have always been able to sustain weekly gains in poundage on every exercise even though I row also everyday (when using the highest setting which also gives you the highest drag factor as well).

But I am interested in strength. I find that too many people under estimate the capacity of the human body for work -- real strength gains come through hard work in the gym or on the erg or both.

My advice: experiment and see what happens. I don't think there is anything wrong with exercising fast and slow twitch muscles if you want to be strong. I learned this on the farm when I used to move sprinkler pipe in the morning and evening every day, buck bails of hay, and dig irrigation ditches, among other things in the afternoons, as a youngster. I never got big but I was strong. For example, one day working in one of our storage buildings, I had to move an engine block and I asked for some help. No one wanted to help me so I said I would pick it up by myself. I squatted down, wrapped my arms around that engine block and fully expected not to be able to lift it -- thinking that the other guys would help me. Amazingly, I lifted that engine block by myself and carried it over to where it needed to be stored. I gained a lot of respect that day from everyone, and I began to realize how strong a farm kid can get even if small. Blah, blah, blah.

So don't hold yourself back and experiment -- you'll find what works best for you.

[Steelhead]

I ended up with three posts the same.

[Steelhead]

Deleted third identical post.

[tallguy]

May I ask what kind of program do you use when you're rowing? I'm not too sure what I should do. The only other training I do during the week is weight training every other day.

(ie. 1 minute hard, 1 minute easy for 40 minutes OR 10,000 meters OR 4,000 meter row etc....)

[tallguy]

I wouldn't say i'm a power lifter or a bodybuilder. I have never been in any competitions and just started weight lifting a year or so ago, but now I'm dedicated. I bulked up from a very skinny guy. I still have a gut, even had one when i was skinny. I'm 230lb, 6'7" and 15.5% bf. I'm wanting more definition to my muscles and abs now, also wanting the V shape if possible but not sure what else I should be doing. I know I can only see my abs if I reduce my bf at least a good 3 or 4% and wondering if rowing (again, not sure what program for rowing) would do it.

[Steelhead]

I wouldn't say i'm a power lifter or a bodybuilder. I have never been in any competitions and just started weight lifting a year or so ago, but now I'm dedicated. I bulked up from a very skinny guy. I still have a gut, even had one when i was skinny. I'm 230lb, 6'7" and 15.5% bf. I'm wanting more definition to my muscles and abs now, also wanting the V shape if possible but not sure what else I should be doing. I know I can only see my abs if I reduce my bf at least a good 3 or 4% and wondering if rowing (again, not sure what program for rowing) would do it.

Great questions without easy answers.

I warm up for my strength training session by rowing 30 minutes using the highest drag factor on my Model B. I'm just warming up so I just row over 6,000 meters minimum.

Then on a three day a week program I do a full workout starting with five sets of squats, five sets of bench press, five sets of military press, five sets of barbell row, 1 set of 5 deadlifts, three sets of dips, three sets of pull-ups/chin-ups, and five sets of curls -- increasing daily is the goal. Typically, I do a six day program that is more advanced, doing chest and shoulders on Monday; Back and arms on Tuesday, Legs on Wednesday, etc. (more sets, pyramids, etc.). On the six day program, I warm up by rowing for 2000 meters; after my work out, I row for one hour -- again, using the highest setting and highest drag factor rowing for form and strength without straps.

To get cut, you have to cut calories while still working out strenuously. There are two ways to do this: keep calories constant and increase physical activity (e.g., add rowing keeping calories eaten constant) or cut calories and keep physical activity constant. Here is a trick I use: I determine the weight I want to have when cut, and then I calculate my BMR resting and the number of calories needed at my goal weight; then this is what I eat and so I get cut.

Alternatively, if you are not in a hurry, then you just keep adding muscle by lifting more and rowing harder without increasing your diet, and eventually your metabolism will be so high that you will start noticing the fat fall away. You get huge then you get small, but you keep getting stronger.

Well, I don't have the time or space here to go into too much detail, but if you cut out the junk food and saturated fat, and eat fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, grains, beans and legumes, and a minimal amount of animal protein (no more than 50 grams per day (i.e., get the other 50 to 100 grams from grains, beans, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables and fruits), exercise hard, then you will get that V-shape you want and you will be cut.

The key is eating less calories than you expend. With respect to rowing, this is just an additional form of exercise that works all your muscles (except for the pecs) that will augment your strength training with weights. If/when you add it to your strength training program, then you will start burning an additional 700 or 800 calories that you were not burning before, plus you will be strengthening your lats, traps, bicips, tricips, abdominals, etc. making you even stronger than if you just lifted weights (and giving you more stamina).

[Steelhead]

I love the water. I was dragon boatting for several months but am not going to continue as I feel I'm too big for it. I'm 6'7" and 230lb. I tried kayaking which was pretty relaxing but didn't feel like it was working out any muscles too much and if I paddled harder, i'd probably fall in.

I'm very interested in rowing, but I've heard conflicting answers for which muscles it works out. Some say it'll mainly (70 - 80%) do your lower body while others say it's great at working out your upper body. I'm mainly interested in my upper body. Biceps, Triceps, Shoulders, Chest, Back, Abs. I weight lift at least 3 times a week and looking for a great cardio activity that can also help my upper body maintain it's muscle size or grow at the same time.

What do you guys think? Should I be looking for another activity instead of rowing?

I found this on another thread that may be of interest to you:

PJM
10k Poster


Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 1387

Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject:
Rowing and Osteoporosis
People have often asked us if rowing is a good form of exercise for the prevention of osteoporosis. We recently found some research that tells at least part of the story. The study was done at the Washington University School of Medicine and was published in the Journal of Bone and Mineral Research in 1997. The researchers compared two modes of exercise: ground-reaction force and joint-reaction force. Ground-reaction force (GRF) exercise included walking, jogging and stepping. Joint-reaction force (JRF) exercise included weight-lifting and rowing on the Concept2 Indoor Rower.

The researchers found that rowing and weight-lifting increased bone mineral density in 3 of 4 locations tested, and did so with lower strain rates than did the GRF exercises.

In addition, it was found that the rowing and weight-lifting group showed the greatest improvements in overall strength and lean body mass. The authors observed that these gains should decrease the risk of falling and help maintain functional independence and overall health despite advancing age.

What does this mean for rowers?
You may still want to keep some walking, running or stepping in your fitness program for variety and extra insurance. but you can feel good about the fact that Rowing, in combination with strength training, not only increases bone density but has the added benefit of increasing overall fitness, strength and flexibility.

"Effects of Exercise Involving Predominantly Either Joint-Reaction or Ground-Reaction Forces on Bone Mineral Density in Older Women," Journal of Bone and Mineral Research, Volume 12, Number 8, 1997


Love this article!!

Pat

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[tallguy]

Thanks for another great reply. That's some very good information about getting cut. What I'm really after is to know what kind of program I should be doing on the concept 2 though. I see so many different types but I don't think I fall into any of them.

On concept2.com, it lists various programs on the rower for cross-training, but I'm not hardcore into any other sports so I'm ruled out of this one. There's "training for a competition" which I'm not doing and "training for a marathon" which I'm also not doing. Lastly, there's "training for weight control" which I may fit into. The one and only place I'm needing to lose is my bf over my abs (aka my gut). This program is 30 - 50min each workout of rowing though. This would seem to take muscle away from my body, which i definately do not want.

[Steelhead]

Thanks for another great reply. That's some very good information about getting cut. What I'm really after is to know what kind of program I should be doing on the concept 2 though. I see so many different types but I don't think I fall into any of them.

On concept2.com, it lists various programs on the rower for cross-training, but I'm not hardcore into any other sports so I'm ruled out of this one. There's "training for a competition" which I'm not doing and "training for a marathon" which I'm also not doing. Lastly, there's "training for weight control" which I may fit into. The one and only place I'm needing to lose is my bf over my abs (aka my gut). This program is 30 - 50min each workout of rowing though. This would seem to take muscle away from my body, which i definately do not want.

Don't overeat too many empty calories, and don't go crazy with the protein; eat a balanced diet of fruits, vegetables, grains, legumes, and a minimal amount (no more than 10% of your daily calories) of animal protein (isolated whey protein is good: it has no fat, no cholesterol, and is non-acidic). Row a minimum 20 to 30 minutes daily using the highest drag factor that you can handle. Row after your weight training. Keep increasing the poundage you lift as often as possible, but don't increase calories eaten. At some point in time, the fat will disappear but the muscle will remain. That is the beginning erging program for you as a weight lifter. Just do it! See what happens.