new rowperfect

thomasan · Post by **thomasan** » March 13th, 2007, 3:58 pm

Anyone getting the new rowperfect? Is it worth the extra money and does anyone see it replacing the concept2 as the standard in rowers, especially with people like Xeno pushing it?

Rockin Roland · Post by **Rockin Roland** » March 13th, 2007, 5:55 pm

I believe Xeno is currently testing the new model to see if it can hold up to the same level of abuse that C2 ergs can take. He'd be the man to give us the best feedback. He mentioned something about producing a video with him rowing on one.

Rowperfect, although the original machine being a Dutch invention, is an Australian company with Xeno being the USA west coast distributor. Although major Universities such as Cambridge and more elite OTW rowers are using them, C2 ergs still rule the roost for OTW time trial testing. As far as I'm aware all the recent erg time trials for national selection in Australia were done on C2 ergs.

As for the future, who know? Because Rowperfect have the patent for moving flywheel ergs, C2 are pretty much stuck with a dead end machine as far as dynamic development goes.

At present there aren't enough Rowperfects around for it to be used as a OTW standard. However, being an OTW rower myself I believe the Rowperfect is a more suitable machine for testing OTW rowers than the C2 sationary erg.

I'm very keen to purchase the Rowperfect as my next erg. Over the last 12 months I've been getting a lot of intensive coaching on the water to straighten out all the bad habits I've picked up from using the C2 erg too much. Coaching staff at our rowing club have used me as an example of what damage a C2 erg can do to your OTW technique.

Now that I'm cured from all my C2 erg bad habits I'm reluctant to spend too much time on a C2 erg again(I still use one with reduced volume). I'm getting so much enjoyment from rowing technically well in scull and sweep boats now that I'm looking for an erg that will keep me sharp in the boat. Sorry C2 but at present I think the Rowperfect might be a better erg for people like myself.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » March 13th, 2007, 6:44 pm

I was ready to purchase a RP last fall, contacted them but never got a response.

Finally they responded with an email link to an article a few months later, and still didn't answer my question about how to purchase one.

In the meantime I had done more research, found they are as fragile as their customer support is lacking, and purchased a model D/pm3 from C2. I have previously owned a model B and C and am very happy with C2.

Based on my contacts with over the last 4 or 5 years with RP, they are quite reclusive and their erg not worth the price they are asking. Also I think Xeno as their rep, correct this if not right, hasn't even obtained one for his location. So good luck if you're planning to get one for yourself.

As a better alternative to a RP I'd recommend a new C2 model with the slides.

Rockin Roland · Post by **Rockin Roland** » March 13th, 2007, 11:44 pm

John Rupp wrote:I was ready to purchase a RP last fall, contacted them but never got a response.

Finally they responded with an email link to an article a few months later, and still didn't answer my question about how to purchase one.

In the meantime I had done more research, found they are as fragile as their customer support is lacking, and purchased a model D/pm3 from C2. I have previously owned a model B and C and am very happy with C2.

Based on my contacts with over the last 4 or 5 years with RP, they are quite reclusive and their erg not worth the price they are asking. Also I think Xeno as their rep, correct this if not right, hasn't even obtained one for his location. So good luck if you're planning to get one for yourself.

As a better alternative to a RP I'd recommend a new C2 model with the slides.

It appears to me that your decision to not purchase a Rowperfect was based more on the customer service aspect rather than the performance of the machine.

I'm interested in who you tried to contact about the Rowperfect because Durham Boat Co (N.H.) claim to be the exclusive USA distributor of the product. They are also distributors for BBG Racing shells, Dreher oars, Magik oarlocks(all quality rowing equipment) amoungst other things and hence would not be focused solely on a small revenue earner such as Rowperfect. That might explain part of your problem. Perhaps someone like Xeno might do them more justice.

I also can't agree with your recommendation of a C2 with slides over a Rowperfect for reasons explained by others in another thread on this forum. However your needs as a gym equipment user rather than a OTW rower like myself would be totally different. I do recall in earlier threads that you were looking for something more dynamic in movement than the C2 erg so perhaps you have changed your mind.

johnlvs2run · Post by **johnlvs2run** » March 14th, 2007, 2:21 am

Hi Roland,

I definitely prefer a dynamic erg to a static one, which is why I prefer using the Concept2 on slides even though most of the time I do my rowing without them. I'm happy the Concept2 rowing machines and slides are readily available to the public, and that the Concept2 customer service is excellent.

We can agree that someone who is more limited in their use might like a RP, as long as they are willing to pay the inflated price and can find one. That is fine with me. Anyone who wants a RP and can afford the price should be able to go ahead and get one, though I don't know why anyone would.

The Concept2 ergs are far more popular, because they are better, and because rowers prefer them to any other rowing machine. This is why I have owned a Concept2 model B, a Concept2 model C, and last fall purchased a Concept2 model D/pm3.

Spectre · Post by **Spectre** » March 14th, 2007, 1:12 pm

I got to try the new RP prototype at the US Masters nationals last year. It is a good machine and seems to have some attributes that may make it slightly better for OTW training. My first impressions were that if RP had a good monitor, (there was not one on the prototype) they might give C2 a run for thier money considering the model E had just come out and was roughly the same price. Since then I have to say I have changed my mind. RP has not made much of an effort to get their product out to the clubs etc. The RP might have some advantages in simulating the rowing stroke that C2 does not have, but C2 makes a bomb proof product. Go to any rowing club in the US and you will find machines that withstand constant abuse from rowers of all abilities. I am not so sure the RP will be able to last the same way. Erging is just one part of training for rowing, I mean lets face it the best OTW training is OTW. There are a few style snobs out there that claim the fixed erg causes bad form but good coaching on the erg and off generally avoids those problems.

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » March 14th, 2007, 2:03 pm

Spectre wrote:I got to try the new RP prototype at the US Masters nationals last year. It is a good machine and seems to have some attributes that may make it slightly better for OTW training. My first impressions were that if RP had a good monitor, (there was not one on the prototype) they might give C2 a run for thier money considering the model E had just come out and was roughly the same price. Since then I have to say I have changed my mind. RP has not made much of an effort to get their product out to the clubs etc. The RP might have some advantages in simulating the rowing stroke that C2 does not have, but C2 makes a bomb proof product. Go to any rowing club in the US and you will find machines that withstand constant abuse from rowers of all abilities. I am not so sure the RP will be able to last the same way. Erging is just one part of training for rowing, I mean lets face it the best OTW training is OTW. There are a few style snobs out there that claim the fixed erg causes bad form but good coaching on the erg and off generally avoids those problems.

Well said! If you are screwing up on the Grounded C2, you will be screwing up on the Slides or the RP, though the screwing up will be masked in the sliding situations so they in fact require more attention to "doing it right" than does the grounded Erg.

I view the Erg as a very specific training tool that can be applied very well to what a person will eventually do in a boat, as it provides a very stable environment in which to form good (or bad) habits, so it's not just a matter of saying "Go do a 30 minute 8k, and you will be ready for the boat", but more like "Realize what you are going to be doing in a boat and practice exactly those things while on the Erg. If you lose focus when on the Erg, stop, refocus, and begin again."

Practice makes permanent! Only perfect practice makes perfect! And anyway, we only get to approach perfect; at least I've never seen it. Though the 2003/2004 French M2x comes the closest.

yehster · Post by **yehster** » March 14th, 2007, 4:22 pm

Someone should build an "endless pool" big enough to fit a single. Scaling it up to the next level to fit a pair would be great for sweep rowers. That'll end the debate over the best way to train indoors for OTW rowing.

Kinley · Post by **Kinley** » March 14th, 2007, 4:45 pm

Wouldn't this be the same as rowing against the tide? You'd be pulling a very heavy load at a very low rate.

yehster · Post by **yehster** » March 14th, 2007, 4:53 pm

Hmm... I guess the ideal system would need to modulate the the flow of water through out the different phases of the stroke. Perhaps I haven't thought my clever plan all the way through

PaulS · Post by **PaulS** » March 14th, 2007, 6:22 pm

yehster wrote:Hmm... I guess the ideal system would need to modulate the the flow of water through out the different phases of the stroke. Perhaps I haven't thought my clever plan all the way through

Well, the pool would have to exceed the length of the boat by some margin, to account for the hull surge, and would only have to maintain a velocity to counter the average speed of the hull. There could of course be attached safety cords from the bow and stern that would keep an impact with the pool edge from happening, and somethign similar to the Slide Bungees could help to dampen the hull surge, though that might spoil some of the training benefit.

It might be easier to put a large inflatable dome over a small lake, or to build a rowing course inside one of the abandonded Automobile assembly lines which were over a mile long and already indoors.

Bob S. · Post by **Bob S.** » March 14th, 2007, 7:49 pm

PaulS wrote:
yehster wrote: Well, the pool would have to exceed the length of the boat by some margin, to account for the hull surge, and would only have to maintain a velocity to counter the average speed of the hull. There could of course be attached safety cords from the bow and stern that would keep an impact with the pool edge from happening, and somethign similar to the Slide Bungees could help to dampen the hull surge, though that might spoil some of the training benefit.

How do the regular pools work? I have seen only one and that had two pools, one on each side of the fixed row of sliding seats and riggers. But I didn't see if there was any control of the water flow. The use of indoor training pools goes back a long, long way — many decades before the C2. What is the story on them? Are they still in use? The one I saw was in the MIT boathouse in 1995. I remember hearing about eastern crews using them in the 40s. Is this still being done?

The Long Beach club has a single unit used for training right on the dock, for either port or starboard sweep practice. They use oars with holes in the blade to reduce the load to come closer to that of a boat in motion.

Of course, neither of these devices provide any feel for keeping a boat set.

Bob S.

yehster · Post by **yehster** » March 14th, 2007, 8:19 pm

The one at MIT (my alma matter

has a big engine/pump in the basement that is used to propel the water.

Nosmo · Post by **Nosmo** » March 14th, 2007, 10:18 pm

yehster wrote:Hmm... I guess the ideal system would need to modulate the the flow of water through out the different phases of the stroke. Perhaps I haven't thought my clever plan all the way through

The water velocity should be constant. If the water flow is smooth, you could not tell if you are moving (on average) or the boat is without referencing some external object like the shore.

You would probably want something at least 100 meters long. Then you could vary your speed without running into the end. You want a sensor and a control system that could adjust the speed of the water based the position of the boat so you would always stay near the center. This way you could do intervals and stop rowing and never have to worry. Then of course you would want a wave machine to simulate bad rowing conditions. Add some big fans for rowing into or out of the wind. Then you need some big screen TVs that display other boats to row against.
Or you could just move to San Diego and row outdoors year round.

Rockin Roland · Post by **Rockin Roland** » March 14th, 2007, 11:23 pm

http://www.durhamboat.com/tanks.php

Here's an example of a standard rowing tank which is somewhat different to what we have at our club. Our club has the shell of a four with it's ends cut off and replaced with flat panels connected to large springs mounted on the pool walls. The oars have holes in the blades and combined with the springs between shell and wall take up the force from the four rowers. Three of the four walls are covered with mirrors so that you can look forwards or across to view your technique.

The boat floats on the water and is mounted only at the ends. Hence there is some feeling of movement and balance but nothing like the real thing on a river or lake. Load at the catch feels somewhat heavier and there is a tendency for the blades to wash out more than the real thing. Much better than trying to teach rowing technique to someone on an erg plus it gives you a fair workout at the same time.