What I'd like from Santa this Christmas
- Rockin Roland
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What I'd like from Santa this Christmas
I'm a bloke that spends most of his spare time rowing on the water. I have my own single scull but also spend a lot of time rowing with much younger blokes in fours and eights.
My Model C erg with PM2+ connected to a computer with Rowpro software is a valuable tool for interval training to improve my speed and strength.
However because of my OTW rowing lifestyle my needs in a rowing machine are somewhat different to that of a "gym rat" in a concrete jungle.
I often think about what would be the ideal rowing machine to replace my C2 model C. I'm sure many others on this forum also have a mental picture of their ideal erg.
Well it's not a C2 model D or E because they don't do enough to improve the rowing experience over a model C. It's also not the Rowperfect, which would be an welcome improvement over what I have now.
Check this out:
http://www.biorower.com/dynamicbiorower.htm
It was love at first sight and just what I want from Santa. The only catch is the price. At $11,500 it's more expensive than most single scull boats. It makes the C2 erg look like a piece of junk but in all fairness to C2 their ergs are only a fraction of a Biorowers's price.
They even come with the nice C2 oar handles.
Please Santa may I have one.
P.S.
Click on the analysis tab and look at the cool charts on oar arcs and force curves.
My Model C erg with PM2+ connected to a computer with Rowpro software is a valuable tool for interval training to improve my speed and strength.
However because of my OTW rowing lifestyle my needs in a rowing machine are somewhat different to that of a "gym rat" in a concrete jungle.
I often think about what would be the ideal rowing machine to replace my C2 model C. I'm sure many others on this forum also have a mental picture of their ideal erg.
Well it's not a C2 model D or E because they don't do enough to improve the rowing experience over a model C. It's also not the Rowperfect, which would be an welcome improvement over what I have now.
Check this out:
http://www.biorower.com/dynamicbiorower.htm
It was love at first sight and just what I want from Santa. The only catch is the price. At $11,500 it's more expensive than most single scull boats. It makes the C2 erg look like a piece of junk but in all fairness to C2 their ergs are only a fraction of a Biorowers's price.
They even come with the nice C2 oar handles.
Please Santa may I have one.
P.S.
Click on the analysis tab and look at the cool charts on oar arcs and force curves.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
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- Paddler
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- Joined: November 26th, 2006, 9:21 pm
I think if I had one of those I might be more inclined to erg... I love the motion of the pull through which you don't get on the erg at all. I wonder what kind of sound it makes though, and can you feather?
Oh well if I had that money I'd buy a boat first.
Oh well if I had that money I'd buy a boat first.
-citius altius fortius
faster higher stronger-
faster higher stronger-
- Byron Drachman
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Have you seen the rowing machine on the Titanic?
http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_gymnasium.shtml
By the way, I feather on my C2. I have a homemade handle.
To get that neat water sound with the C2 sometimes I row along with Xeno at Newport Bay (playing DVD#5 or 6) with the sound turned up.
Byron
http://www.titanic-titanic.com/titanic_gymnasium.shtml
By the way, I feather on my C2. I have a homemade handle.
To get that neat water sound with the C2 sometimes I row along with Xeno at Newport Bay (playing DVD#5 or 6) with the sound turned up.
Byron
- Yes, you can feather, although it's not exactly as on a boat.
- And there are pairs, fours and eights (yet to be built), where all places are interactive, that is, errors at the catch and release interfere with the rest of the crew. I also would love to give it a try....
- Well, and the cash really seems a problem.
- And there are pairs, fours and eights (yet to be built), where all places are interactive, that is, errors at the catch and release interfere with the rest of the crew. I also would love to give it a try....
- Well, and the cash really seems a problem.
yr 1966, 1,87 m, 8? kg
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1201739576.png[/img]
Be Water, My Friend!
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1201739576.png[/img]
Be Water, My Friend!
- Rockin Roland
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If C2 had some smart engineers in its employ you'd think they'd be able to build a similar machine based on the existing flywheel concept from their current ergs. They built the "Dyno" machine based on their rowing machine ergs so why not something like the "Biorower" which already uses C2 oars.
Maybe because the "Dyno" turned out to be such a dog their not willing to risk straying too far from their current bread and butter design. Instead they choose to only develop the monitor leaving anything else to just cosmetic changes.
It's a shame because changing the pulling motion of the handle into more boat like principles would be welcomed by many C2 erg users.
Maybe because the "Dyno" turned out to be such a dog their not willing to risk straying too far from their current bread and butter design. Instead they choose to only develop the monitor leaving anything else to just cosmetic changes.
It's a shame because changing the pulling motion of the handle into more boat like principles would be welcomed by many C2 erg users.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
- Afterburner
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I have to agree, if C2 made something that would have the hand motion of a real 1x, I would be one happy camper, especially as a coach trying to teach novice how to row. Having sweep versions would be useful too.
The feathering ability would be huge, I know that even just for myself, that's something that I really have to spend a lot of time practicing. It would be a heck of a lot nicer practicing that indoors in a heated room than freezing my butt off on the water.
I have to agree about the price issue tho, no way anyone in their right of mind would buy an erg for more than the price of a 1x!
Heather
The feathering ability would be huge, I know that even just for myself, that's something that I really have to spend a lot of time practicing. It would be a heck of a lot nicer practicing that indoors in a heated room than freezing my butt off on the water.
I have to agree about the price issue tho, no way anyone in their right of mind would buy an erg for more than the price of a 1x!
Heather
F23 5'7" Lwt
2k 7:18.5/ 6k 23:15.7/ 100k 9:07:27.7
2k 7:18.5/ 6k 23:15.7/ 100k 9:07:27.7
hm hm,.
as I have posted in a different topic I have already rowed it.
But what probably helps me more to make a decession:
I have talked to the company founder. Something I would recommend doing if you have the chance. Interesting guy with a respectable philosophy.
Anyway, the price might be higher than a single scull, but I get more for my money.
An Empacher K12 costs around 7500, just like the S1 that we want to order.
I am not affiliated with that company to make that clear right away.
But I think building a boat takes far less effort, and there are no benefits for the winter.
When I am on race courses during the summer, I talk to the boat builders. Trust me, building a boat costs a fraction of the final price. That's why I think the comparison is not valid.
Just my opinion.
PS: What do you do with 2 singles when you can't row both of them?
as I have posted in a different topic I have already rowed it.
But what probably helps me more to make a decession:
I have talked to the company founder. Something I would recommend doing if you have the chance. Interesting guy with a respectable philosophy.
Anyway, the price might be higher than a single scull, but I get more for my money.
An Empacher K12 costs around 7500, just like the S1 that we want to order.
I am not affiliated with that company to make that clear right away.
But I think building a boat takes far less effort, and there are no benefits for the winter.
When I am on race courses during the summer, I talk to the boat builders. Trust me, building a boat costs a fraction of the final price. That's why I think the comparison is not valid.
Just my opinion.
PS: What do you do with 2 singles when you can't row both of them?
You seem to get a lot of use out of a piece of equipment made by a company without any "smart engineers". I see your point though. A thriving company with massive market share and a passionate user base must be doing something terribly wrong.Rockin Roland wrote:If C2 had some smart engineers in its employ...
How would a static ergometer with a feathering capability mimic the real world feathering action in a boat? There is a complete dynamic that involves the feeling of releasing the pressure from the blade, along with the acceleration of the boat, that would be extremely difficult to recreate. I can guarantee you that unless the biorower is doing something very sophisticated, it is only a crude approximation. For probably somewhere in the range of $200 and a little ingenuity, you can very easily create a "feathering trainer" that you can use indoors.Afterburner wrote:The feathering ability would be huge, I know that even just for myself, that's something that I really have to spend a lot of time practicing. It would be a heck of a lot nicer practicing that indoors in a heated room than freezing my butt off on the water.
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- Byron Drachman
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Forgive me if you've already seen this. I use slides with a seat that is unstable when the wooden dowel is in place, and with handles that rotate so I can feather while on the C2. People who have tried it says it does give an OTW feel, but of course there is nothing exactly like being on the water except for being on the water. The unstable seat gives an additional core workout and does help develop balance for on the water. There is a commercially made seat that can be set to be unstable, CorePerform, that gets good reviews.
http://www.math.msu.edu/~drachman/row/rockin_seat7.jpg
Byron
http://www.math.msu.edu/~drachman/row/rockin_seat7.jpg
Byron
- Rockin Roland
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It's all about choice. Unlike before, there are now other options for someone looking for a rowing machine that goes as close as possible to replicating the feel of a boat. In my opinion "Biorower" and "Rowperfect" do a better job at that than C2 but unfortunately fall down in other areas (price, distribution & customer service).becz wrote: A thriving company with massive market share and a passionate user base must be doing something terribly wrong.
For probably somewhere in the range of $200 and a little ingenuity, you can very easily create a "feathering trainer" that you can use indoors.
If C2 were serious about building a machine that is closer to following the motion of an oar they probably could have done it by now. However when a company has so much of the gym equipment market cries from OTW rowers wanting something more boat like would tend to fall on deaf ears.
PBs: 2K 6:13.4, 5K 16:32, 6K 19:55, 10K 33:49, 30min 8849m, 60min 17,309m
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
Caution: Static C2 ergs can ruin your technique and timing for rowing in a boat.
The best thing I ever did to improve my rowing was to sell my C2 and get a Rowperfect.
There is the possibility to feather, but without the guide/pitch given by the oar lock (similiar to Byron's system, you can just turn the oar by feeling as far as I know), so the real "locking" feeling is not given.becz wrote:...
How would a static ergometer with a feathering capability mimic the real world feathering action in a boat? There is a complete dynamic that involves the feeling of releasing the pressure from the blade, along with the acceleration of the boat, that would be extremely difficult to recreate. I can guarantee you that unless the biorower is doing something very sophisticated, it is only a crude approximation. For probably somewhere in the range of $200 and a little ingenuity, you can very easily create a "feathering trainer" that you can use indoors.
Of course no real catch/release feeling, also no possibility to catch a crab!

The dynamic feeling of rowing otw will not be replicated, but everything which gets close to it will be welcome.
I would like to know the force curve given by the biorower, and how it is achieved.
Marcel Hacker has one of these, and says it is good. Of course there are other good otw-rowers who love the Waterrower, others Rowperfect, others Concept...
Personal preferences? Marketing? Who knows. Would love to hear more feedback of someone who has already tried the Biorower, and of course, have a go myself!

On the other hand, making an erg be more otw-like will make it more difficult to use for "gym rats", so it's condemned to be a (very welcome) niche product of a niche branch...

yr 1966, 1,87 m, 8? kg
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1201739576.png[/img]
Be Water, My Friend!
[img]http://www.c2ctc.com/sigs/img1201739576.png[/img]
Be Water, My Friend!
I think this is the basic problem with making the erg more rowing specific, and the reason the biorower is so expensive. Don't get me wrong, as an avid sculler I'd love to see a more realistic experience, and I'd be willing to pay a little more for it, but not more than a top-end racing single.ancho wrote:[On the other hand, making an erg be more otw-like will make it more difficult to use for "gym rats", so it's condemned to be a (very welcome) niche product of a niche branch...
I think it should be possible for an enterprising individual (PaulS?, Byron?) to design a modification for the erg to accompolish some of these things. The problem I see with just allowing the handle to rotate, and the dynamic I was referring to, is the fact that the handle (due to the pressure on the blade) opposes a huge torque during the drive. This opposing force then disappears during the blade release and recovery. Therefore you should only be able to rotate the handle during a portion of the stroke. Any ideas on how to achieve this? Seriously, I'm curious.
Personally I think the more important aspect to replicate (and something the biorower does) is the extension of the arms at the catch and the crossover during the drive and recovery to capture the proper load on the lats. It should be possible to think of a means of modifying the erg for this purpose. Ideas? If you can come up with something that costs significantly less than the difference in price between the C2 and the biorower, I think you'd have an idea with a lot of potential.
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- PaulS
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Handle rotation: Sure, just create a handle that can rotate about a core that has the same shape as the sleeve of a scull, scaled down considerably and with the mating surfaces pointing in the opposite direction because it is not taking pace at an oarlock. This machine was being discussed on RSR and the rotation of the handles does not have stops like a boat would, however they say they could make it so as an option.becz wrote: I think it should be possible for an enterprising individual (PaulS?, Byron?) to design a modification for the erg to accompolish some of these things. The problem I see with just allowing the handle to rotate, and the dynamic I was referring to, is the fact that the handle (due to the pressure on the blade) opposes a huge torque during the drive. This opposing force then disappears during the blade release and recovery. Therefore you should only be able to rotate the handle during a portion of the stroke. Any ideas on how to achieve this? Seriously, I'm curious.
Personally I think the more important aspect to replicate (and something the biorower does) is the extension of the arms at the catch and the crossover during the drive and recovery to capture the proper load on the lats. It should be possible to think of a means of modifying the erg for this purpose. Ideas? If you can come up with something that costs significantly less than the difference in price between the C2 and the biorower, I think you'd have an idea with a lot of potential.
Same load on the lats:
While the elbow will follow a slightly different path on the Erg than in a boat, I can't see how it is enough different (i.e. anywhere near the different hand path, but the hand is only attached through the elbow) to really require a modification for that. The difference that does exist is all in the first 1/3 of the drive, after that the lats would be used nearly identically as they would in a boat, supported out to the side to maintain a flat/level forearm and wrist.
The hand path is mechanically created by the rotation about the pin, and while I see very new scullers/rowers pulling the collar away from the oarlock from time to time, once they get their mind around keeping the collar against the oarlock it all appears to happen rather naturally.
It would be very interesting to try one of these machines and they said it might happen in the USA at some point, but as a custom built system at this time, it's no wonder they cost as much, or more, than a hand crafted boat.
It does make one wonder how the RP claims of "The moving mass is the same as a 1x, making ours the only true rowing simulator." can exist as anything more than marketing, when this unit will far outweigh a C2 on slides and make similar claims of "boat-likeness". Does the "moving mass" have much to do with it or not? It can't be both ways, can it?
Erg on,
Paul Smith
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Paul Smith
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- Byron Drachman
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Ancho wrote:
When I first posted the photo, I mentioned that a more advanced model would have sensors so that if you feather before the tap down, a huge spring loaded oar handle whacks you in the ribs and an overhead bucket dumps water onto you.
My rotating handles have stops so there is a clicking when squared or feathered so I can pretend it's when the oar is squared or fully feathered. My whole setup is very simple. Of course I much prefer to be on the water. Unfortunately there are times when the river is frozen.
Byron
Hi Ancho,Of course no real catch/release feeling, also no possibility to catch a crab!
When I first posted the photo, I mentioned that a more advanced model would have sensors so that if you feather before the tap down, a huge spring loaded oar handle whacks you in the ribs and an overhead bucket dumps water onto you.
My rotating handles have stops so there is a clicking when squared or feathered so I can pretend it's when the oar is squared or fully feathered. My whole setup is very simple. Of course I much prefer to be on the water. Unfortunately there are times when the river is frozen.
Byron