Cncept2 Pace Chart vs actual single 1X Boat Pace

[koala]

I cannot find a post like this, and it may seem dumb, and maybe should be in an on the water rowing forum like row2k (I'll post it there too), but here goes:

Someone who has rowed on the water in both elite racing 1x singles as well as slower open water 22' recreational singles like the Alden Star or the Maas could probably answer this best:

Essentially, are the concept2 machine pace chart times calibrated based on an elite 28 foot 27 pound lightweight racing shell, a heavy wooden rowboat, or something in between, like, say a Maas or Alden open water shell?

Here is why I ask. Question has to do with the concept2 rower and its "Indoor rower pace chart" in the manual, and actual pace rowing an actual on the water shell.

Before I got the concept2, I had experience rowing. I row a 45 pound (when fully rigged) Alden Star 22' single 1x rowing shell, which is classified as an "open water" recreational shell. I am 5' 9" and my weight is 145, and I am in pretty good shape. I row it each morning on a flat water lake, not on open water. I have well over 150 hours on the water with it, have taken lessons, and am very comfortable in it, and concentrating on technique and not necessarily speed. I do not race with it. It is for fitness and recreation.

Admittedly, the Alden Star is not an ultra fast craft as as are the true elite 28 pound 27 foot racing shells, so I understand that I cannot make the Alden Star move as fast as an elite lightweight shell.

I am finding that the pace times in the concept2 chart do not come CLOSE to the actual pace I can do in the Alden Star. My actual boat times are embarassingly MUCH MUCH MUCH SLOWER. Example below:

First time I got on the Concept2, I set the damper flywheel setting lever to 3, and rowed for 4 minutes to see if I could match the middle figure on the chart that says 1000m in 4 minutes. I was able to do that no problem. The effort felt comparable to the effort I exert on my Alden Star rowing shell in 4 minutes.

HOWEVER, if I row for 4 minutes in my rowing shell on flat water (no wind factor or tide factor) at that same effort, I cannot reach 1000m in 4 minutes, I only cover about 750m of that distance in 4 minutes. WHich is pretty far off.

So, assuming my technique is good in my rowing shell, which I believe it is (I am not burying my oars, have clean entry and exit, etc.), why are my actual on the water times so much slower than being on the Concept2 machine or the times I see for elite racing shell competitions?

When I look at actual speed pace times for elite lightweight rowing shell racers, the concept2 times do seem to match those on the ater race times.

Is my discrepancy because the concept2 machine is calibrated to a faster, lighter, true elite rowing shell?

I cannot find any time results for an Alden Star for 2k races anywhere.

I have never rowed in a lightweight true elite racing shell so I do not know if I would be faster in one and if so, how much faster, so cannot confirm my theory.

Is there anyone who has experience with times in open water recreational shells and elite racing 1x singles, and concept2 machines that can help with my question?

Thanks!

[Bob S.]

Essentially, are the concept2 machine pace chart times calibrated based on an elite 28 foot 27 pound lightweight racing shell, a heavy wooden rowboat, or something in between, like, say a Maas or Alden open water shell?
Thanks!

Accrding to what I have seen on this forum on occasion, it is not based on a single, but on a four, but I forget whether it is 4-, 4+, or 4x.

Bob S.

[Ray79]

From what I have heard the C2 erg is calibrated to replicate the performance of a 4-
if it were crewed by a bunch of clones doing exactly the same each stroke.

The fact that you cant cover 1000m in 4 minutes in your 1x is no suprise. There is so much more technique involved and more things to think about thann just moving up and down the slide

For example elite international scullers are in and around 5:50 - 6 minutes for 2km on an erg, but take at the very best 6:40 to cover the same distance on the water. And these guys are very good technicians too.

When I look at actual speed pace times for elite lightweight rowing shell racers, the concept2 times do seem to match those on the ater race times.

This is flawed too. Zac Purchase who won the World Rowing Championships in the LM1X this year did 6:14 last year at BIRC on the erg and his winning time on the water was 6:47 with a massive tailwind - and he is technically excellent. In fact when he won at Poznan earlier in the season his winning time was 7:24. The heavy 1x winning time at the same regatta was 6:39.

Trying to compare erg performance to boat performance for a 1x is like comparing apples and oranges - the 2 are very different. nd to go back to the old saying - erg's dont float.

[tomhz]

From what I have heard the C2 erg is calibrated to replicate the performance of a 4-
if it were crewed by a bunch of clones doing exactly the same each stroke.

I heard the same.

Trying to compare erg performance to boat performance for a 1x is like comparing apples and oranges - the 2 are very different. nd to go back to the old saying - erg's dont float.

True, for the same reason that comparing 1x and 4- boat performances is like comparing apples and oranges.
But comparing erg performances to boat performances for a 4- is appropriate, as long as you are well experienced in on water rowing.

Tom

[koala]

Thanks everyone for the feedback posts on my question. I'll have to work up a formula to help me translate the pace chart into something that relates better to my 1x single shell and its on the water pace. Aside from a sore butt (dug out a kayak Sealine small backrest pad which solved that), I love my model C which I just bought used over ebay and think it will be a keeper and used daily for the winter months for me. Mint condition. Only 160K on it. Not a scratch. Well maintained. $500. Seems like the prices posted for them up on Row2K classifieds (around $600) were higher than the actual going costs on ebay bids (400-500). (If I can now just get my old vcr hooked up so I can at least watch taped shows I will solve the boredom problem!)
Thanks again.

[PaulS]

Do a search on Gold Medal Standards Australia, and you will find information that relates Erg Speed to Various Boat speeds, and it also takes into account the weight classes. i.e. a lwt woman will go faster in 2x than on the Erg (102% of Erg).

Since you are interested in the Single:
W1x 91%
LW1x 95%

M1x 86%
LM1x 90%

These would be the conversions from boat speed in meters/sec.

[The Vulcan]

I would imagine that comparing an erg to a real boat would be like comparing a treadmill to running on the open road, wouldn't it? Inside, no matter how well the machine simulates the real thing, you still have an absence of wind resistance (and on a treadmill, easier foot turnover.) In my running days, I adjusted the treadmill incline upwards to compensate for this, but I haven't seen anyone mention a way to do the same on the erg. There are no balance or weight issues on an erg either.

[Alissa]

There are no balance or weight issues on an erg either.

I can't say how comparable it would be to a boat, but there is the core perform seat which you can use to challenge your balance a bit...

Alissa

[PaulS]

There are no balance or weight issues on an erg either.

I can't say how comparable it would be to a boat, but there is the core perform seat which you can use to challenge your balance a bit...

Alissa

It's not like a boat exactly, but it does indeed challenge your balance, more when strapless than when strapped however.

My customers have been happy with the CP1.

The Treadmill comparison is not quite a parallel, since most folks can walk or run reasonably well on the ground or treadmill, most would also remain upright if put on an erg without instruction, but put them in a boat without instruction and they will likely be swimming in short order.

[koala]

PaulS,

Thanks for info on conversion percentages. Sounds like I should multiply .86 times whatever values I see in the concept2 pace chart/distance/time

Do you have any more info on he Australian gold medal standards site where all these conversions of concept2 erg vs. real boats ?

I tried many google searches, but no dice finding the info you referenced.

Thanks!

[PingPong]

Since you are interested in the Single:
W1x 91%
LW1x 95%

M1x 86%
LM1x 90%

These would be the conversions from boat speed in meters/sec.

This makes me feel pretty good. I timed 1000m OTW yesterday at a 2:30 pace, which corresponds to 1:59 on an ERG (M1x86%). This was at the end of a 8000m piece. If I tried the same on an erg, I'd probably be more like 2:10-2:15. (My erg times have been pathertic lately.)

[PingPong]

PaulS,

Thanks for info on conversion percentages. Sounds like I should multiply .86 times whatever values I see in the concept2 pace chart/distance/time

Do you have any more info on he Australian gold medal standards site where all these conversions of concept2 erg vs. real boats ?

I tried many google searches, but no dice finding the info you referenced.

Thanks!

Here is what I found.

http://www.rowingtas.asn.au/uploads/sdo ... _Final.doc

Look at page 19.