Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

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Hector
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Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by Hector » December 8th, 2013, 8:52 am

Hi
We were about to purchase a Concept 2 rower when a personal trainer in club we were visiting said that with a water rower the work starts earlier in the pull, so is a more efficient wok out?. I have been online and am confused by this?

Second question....is the Rowpro software suitable for beginners of for the more advanced :)
Thanks for any help with this
Hector.

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gregsmith01748
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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by gregsmith01748 » December 8th, 2013, 10:55 am

Hi,
Both concept2 and waterrowers are solid high quality products. The feel is slightly different between them and different folks have different preferences. The main pros of each are:

For the waterrower
- a bit quieter
- looks nicer with all the wood finished

For the concept2
- huge user base globally
- high quality product, lasts for ever
- high quality company, with great customer service
- every machine is well matched with all other c2 ergs, so you can use any machine and track progress, or even race
- great online component (online log, this forum, virtual rowing teams)
- works with rowpro, which is great for beginners and advanced rowers. There is almost always someone to row with when you look for a session.
- ability to choose a dynamic option (either the regular model D on slides or the dynamic erg). These are more like rowing on the water and easier on the back.
- the dynamic has a smaller footprint.

So, of course I'm biased. I love the product. If I was buying new, I'd buy a dynamic.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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DuffyF56
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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by DuffyF56 » December 8th, 2013, 2:34 pm

the work starts earlier in the pull
I don't even understand the basis for this premise. Could you explain his basis for this statement?
58 y, 181cm, 5' 11.25", 99.8kg, 220 Lbs

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gregsmith01748
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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by gregsmith01748 » December 8th, 2013, 5:49 pm

There is a consistent (if minor) complaint about the concept2 erg, that the catch is quite a bit softer than that in a "real" boat, where the connection to the water is immediate and solid. This is more noticeable in the static model D and E, and not as bad on slides or on the dynamic. The water rower might be a smidge better, but I doubt most folks would notice.

By the way, unless the personal trainer has significant collegiate or elite rowing experience, they would be the last person in the world I would trust about deciding on a rowing machine. Most of them know a lot more about other modes of training besides rowing and dispense horrible advice without knowing it.
Greg
Age: 55 H: 182cm W: 90Kg
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jamesg
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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by jamesg » December 9th, 2013, 1:59 am

Could you explain his basis for this statement?
In a C2 the flywheel is spinning when we take the catch. This means we have to accelerate ourselves and the handle to chain speed before the chain can come under tension. This appears as a slack catch, but of course it is work anyway, against our own inertia if not against the flywheel.

Using Newton's laws of motion we can make a guess at how long it takes: chain speed V at catch say 1m/s, handle acceleration A say 2m/s², so S = 0.25m from V²=2AS. As V and A are not known, it is little more than a guess. By taking a very slow catch with low leg force, it can be clearly seen.

We can control this "problem" if it is one and if we want to, by taking the catch with back and legs (i.e not just legs), by taking a full length stroke and even over-reaching a little, by being very quick, by using the Dynamic or slides and by increasing the drag factor if it is below 100. Medium-low drag (100-130) and a fast catch are usually enough to give us a short catch without too much thump when the chain tightens. High drag is NOT a solution; a long stroke is.

On the Water-rower, there is a paddle which spins the water in the tank, and the water is is still moving at the catch, as can be seen from their video. I'm not sure whether the paddle stops completely or not. The video seems to show a little handle slack at the catch anyway.

Both machines get us fit if we use them enough.

Other issues could be differences in the electronics, dust collecting on the fan or in the water, how to adjust drag, price, noise, return springs and so on; it could take some time to decide which to prefer. For C2 users probably the most important factor is the consistency of readings, both across machines and day to day, thanks to digital control of flywheel speeds and times. I've no idea how this works with water.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
2024: stroke 5.5W-min@20-21. ½k 190W, 1k 145W, 2k 120W. Using Wods 4-5days/week. Fading fast.

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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by brianh » December 9th, 2013, 6:04 pm

Hector wrote:with a water rower the work starts earlier in the pull, so is a more efficient wok out?
Short version: no, the C2 will let you demolish yourself in whatever amount of time you want.

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Re: Help! Concept 2 and Water rower conflicting advice

Post by seacow » December 18th, 2013, 10:27 am

Hector,

For what it's worth, I owned both a "fluid rower", by First Degree Fitness, and Concept 2. The fluid rower was not quite the water rower with the wooden frame, so it's not a direct comparison. I have owned the Concept 2 for a year now.

I wrote a bit about it here : http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=6304

In short, both are noisy, you can't get away from that. I don't agree with the water rower giving you a different feel at the start of the pull any more than the Concept 2. The blades will spin the water to the edge of the container, and they move fast enough that even the upright container of the fluid rower spins the water entirely around. Once you're rowing, the inertia of spinning blades is nearly the same. At least that was my experience. But my bottom line is I have had one year of trouble free rowing with the Concept 2, and bit a $1500 bullet when the Fluid rower broke while under warranty and the company never fixed it.

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