Marius:
Would love to read the document but the link doesn't seem to work.
Was the article about elite athlete training?
U.K. Forum
You have to paste the three lines together, when I post it as one link it messes up this thread.mikvan52 wrote:Marius:
Would love to read the document but the link doesn't seem to work.
Was the article about elite athlete training?
The article wasn't about elite training, but one from germany's largest main stream news magazines (der SPIEGEL), dated 2006, about the life of the two students in cambridge, so it doesn't go into depth about what exactly was different about the training, except that it was harder. It also mentions how the german national coach went over to learn from the "drill" over there.
/edit
I guess this would work
http://tinyurl.com/49hgdd
I forgot, take it with a grain of salt, as the student who improved his time is an extreme hwt, if I remember correctly the heaviest ever to participate in the boat race. There was also some controversie surrounding him since he left cambridge last year after winning before completing his studies, but that's another story I guess.
Good to hear it.ausrwr wrote:I'll leap to Bob's defense here, not to Ranger's.
Working down from longer to shorter distances is pretty accepted - I'd look at Derek Clayton's work with Arthur Lydiard as an example, and I'd have no issue with it.
That's exactly what I am doing.
I also "leap to Bob's defense."
It is Mike who is disagreeing.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
No, my "results" are fine.Mikvan52 wrote: You feel otherwise yet you have a paucity of results recently
Having set the 50s lwt WR on three consecutive rows, I have been training myself to be better.
On the erg, your results have not even come up to my _past_ results.
I am now a considerable distance beyond those.
Time to get to work!
Given present standards in the 50s lwts (6:25), the 55s lwt WR should be 6:30.
So...
You are 15 seconds short!
So...
My target now is 6:16.
What is yours?
Given your target, how are you training yourself to get there?
You know how I am training to get to mine:
Pull 13 SPI--across the board.
13 SPI @ 32 spm is 6:16 for 2K.
ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)
Derek Clayton did many years of base building.ranger wrote:ausrwr wrote:I'll leap to Bob's defense here, not to Ranger's.
Working down from longer to shorter distances is pretty accepted - I'd look at Derek Clayton's work with Arthur Lydiard as an example, and I'd have no issue with it.
ranger
That's quite a different training scenario than : (what ranger proposes)
PB's (not training) at
April: FM
May: HM
June: 60'
July: 30'
August: 6k
etc.
remember too: Clayton was in his prime so his energy systems recovered faster.
respectfully....
Rich: Do you know what recently means? What do you have for the last year?ranger wrote:No, my "results" are fine.Mikvan52 wrote: You feel otherwise yet you have a paucity of results recently
Having set the 50s lwt WR on three consecutive rows, I have been training myself to be better.
On the erg, your results have not even come up to my _past_ results.
I am now a considerable distance beyond those.
Time to get to work!
Given present standards in the 50s lwts (6:25), the 55s lwt WR should be 6:30.
(sniP)
You are 15 seconds short!
(snip)My target now is 6:16.
What is yours?
Given your target, how are you training yourself to get there?
You know how I am training to get to mine:
Pull 13 SPI--across the board.
13 SPI @ 32 spm is 6:16 for 2K.
I feel the same way as you do about the 55-59 lwt 2k record. It's soft.
I'm looking to lower it but not dramatically.
My attitude is one of refusal to develop an "erg"-stroke that will destroy my chances for excelling on the water. If I improve my 2k on the erg it won't be by training with a boat-stopping stroke.
All winning coaches agree that one cannot have two strokes.
Hope to see how we compare on the water someday as well as on the erg.
Does it bear repeating what I feel about a 55+ lwt man ever pulling a 6:16 2k.?.. Best of luck.. but you'll have to go to the moon where gravitational pull is a little less
BTW : SPI will never take the place of overall average pace
an since you train at 175+ lbs you have little idea of what it takes to train at sub 165 lbs. .... There is a difference !
What's the longest continuous row where you've averaged 13 + SPI?
If I remember: Last fall you were going to hold 14.5 spi
3 Crash-B hammers
American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...
American 60's Lwt. 2k record (6:49) •• set WRs for 60' & FM •• ~ now surpassed
repeat combined Masters Lwt & Hwt 1x National Champion E & F class
62 yrs, 160 lbs, 6' ...
-
Yankeerunner
- 10k Poster
- Posts: 1193
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 12:17 pm
- Location: West Newbury, MA
- Contact:
Just when I was about to stay out of all things ranger (something about flies following the garbage truck 
) a PM invited me to offer an opinion here. How could I resist? 
First off, this will be simply my opinion, although it's based on over 43 years of endurance training and amateur study of exercise physiology, so I'd unhumbly suggest that it's a good opinion. I don't have the references that people such as Mike Caviston or Navigation Hazard would so bear that in mind.
I firmly believe that a multitude of training programs can lead to the same great result if the athletes using them believe in them enough to be mentally ready for the races when they come around.
I have actually done well starting at the FM and working my way down, getting PBs at all distances except the 2km. That was 2002, when after CRASH-B's I made up my mind to finish a marathon for the Nonathlon. First I worked my way up in distance until I could do a marathon, from late February to mid April, did marathons on the lsst three Sundays of April, then ran off PBs at every other distance except the 2km about every third day. I was fried at the end. I felt that I couldn't get the 2km PB because I had been specifically training for 2km at CRASH-B's, and as good as I had done the other distances I was no longer specifically trained for 2km.
With a longer time horizon I would not start out at the FM and work my way down to 2km. For instance, with an October BIRC coming up I don't think that I could stay at that height of fitness for that long. I'd get injured or go stale. Heck I already have dropped off significantly from where I was three weeks ago when I did my SB in the marathon. The reason things worked so well for me in 2002 was that it was a short period of only 3 months from the start of building up to the final peak dropoff. My best 2kms have come from following the IP and just taking whatever happens along the way at the other distances, for example changing a 1 X 90' UT2 for the Summer Solstice Challenge HM. I feel that if I attempted a PB for the Summer Solstice Challenge HM it would jeopardize my October 2km by getting me too near a peak too soon.
I tend to compartmentalize my marathons into a marathon season that ends at the end of April following the completion of my 2km season that ends with CRASH-B's. For me, separating the two works best.
Back to mental attitude. Just this morning I was having breakfast with my best friend the Hockomock Swamp Rat (Peter Wallan). We were discussing ultramarathoners, something I never, ever, never aspired to be. As a runner I did my best at the FM. Many of my friends who could beat me at shorter distances but lost to me at the marathon wondered how I did it. I think that it was in the head. When the worst fatigue set in and my friends would drop off I could keep slogging away at a faster slog than they could. I liked to think of it in terms of having perseverance and fortitude. Women that I have been married to called it stubborness. Anyway it wasn't simply the training. All those guys trained as much or more than I did.
Other friends who did the ultramarathons all claimed that a 50 miler was easier than a marathon because the pace was slower. Mentally that was something that I couldn't accept. We all had different limits of what we could mentally face even though there were few if any physical differences.
I think that the same is true of the 2km on the erg. After certain common denominators are covered, long stuff to build capillaries and mitochondria, shorter and harder stuff to build lactate tolerance, etc, the guy who wins will be the one who can mentally handle the unique fatigue of a 2km, and whatever training mentally prepares someone for that fatigue is the best for that person. Marathons can be helpful, but can also be unnecessary, depending on the athlete doing them.
) a PM invited me to offer an opinion here. How could I resist? First off, this will be simply my opinion, although it's based on over 43 years of endurance training and amateur study of exercise physiology, so I'd unhumbly suggest that it's a good opinion. I don't have the references that people such as Mike Caviston or Navigation Hazard would so bear that in mind.
I firmly believe that a multitude of training programs can lead to the same great result if the athletes using them believe in them enough to be mentally ready for the races when they come around.
I have actually done well starting at the FM and working my way down, getting PBs at all distances except the 2km. That was 2002, when after CRASH-B's I made up my mind to finish a marathon for the Nonathlon. First I worked my way up in distance until I could do a marathon, from late February to mid April, did marathons on the lsst three Sundays of April, then ran off PBs at every other distance except the 2km about every third day. I was fried at the end. I felt that I couldn't get the 2km PB because I had been specifically training for 2km at CRASH-B's, and as good as I had done the other distances I was no longer specifically trained for 2km.
With a longer time horizon I would not start out at the FM and work my way down to 2km. For instance, with an October BIRC coming up I don't think that I could stay at that height of fitness for that long. I'd get injured or go stale. Heck I already have dropped off significantly from where I was three weeks ago when I did my SB in the marathon. The reason things worked so well for me in 2002 was that it was a short period of only 3 months from the start of building up to the final peak dropoff. My best 2kms have come from following the IP and just taking whatever happens along the way at the other distances, for example changing a 1 X 90' UT2 for the Summer Solstice Challenge HM. I feel that if I attempted a PB for the Summer Solstice Challenge HM it would jeopardize my October 2km by getting me too near a peak too soon.
I tend to compartmentalize my marathons into a marathon season that ends at the end of April following the completion of my 2km season that ends with CRASH-B's. For me, separating the two works best.
Back to mental attitude. Just this morning I was having breakfast with my best friend the Hockomock Swamp Rat (Peter Wallan). We were discussing ultramarathoners, something I never, ever, never aspired to be. As a runner I did my best at the FM. Many of my friends who could beat me at shorter distances but lost to me at the marathon wondered how I did it. I think that it was in the head. When the worst fatigue set in and my friends would drop off I could keep slogging away at a faster slog than they could. I liked to think of it in terms of having perseverance and fortitude. Women that I have been married to called it stubborness. Anyway it wasn't simply the training. All those guys trained as much or more than I did.
Other friends who did the ultramarathons all claimed that a 50 miler was easier than a marathon because the pace was slower. Mentally that was something that I couldn't accept. We all had different limits of what we could mentally face even though there were few if any physical differences.
I think that the same is true of the 2km on the erg. After certain common denominators are covered, long stuff to build capillaries and mitochondria, shorter and harder stuff to build lactate tolerance, etc, the guy who wins will be the one who can mentally handle the unique fatigue of a 2km, and whatever training mentally prepares someone for that fatigue is the best for that person. Marathons can be helpful, but can also be unnecessary, depending on the athlete doing them.
-
johnlvs2run
- Half Marathon Poster
- Posts: 4012
- Joined: March 16th, 2006, 1:13 pm
- Location: California Central Coast
- Contact: