Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

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GeorgeD
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Post by GeorgeD » March 30th, 2006, 4:17 am

Daren wrote:
George wrote:People who say they dont care about who wins or loses should not keep score and people who say they dont care about 'dodgy' times in the rankings should not rank.

The term rankings infers by its very nature that you wish to be compared against others both faster and slower - if you cant trust the veracity of the other times then what would be the point :?:

George
As far as I'm concerned, it's my right to rank my pieces if I wish. I don't really care that some of the times I'm comparing myself against may be false; my belief is that the majority, by some large margin, are honest, so a few false ones here and there have little impact overall.
Totally agree :!:

George

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Post by todd » March 30th, 2006, 7:27 am

I for one don't care what times Dwayne has posted. I'm like thousands of others who post their times and don't have any ambition to be world class rowers. It is simply motivational.

If I was a runner and told everybody that I ran a world record 100m, people might be interested but it wouldn't mean beans until I proved it at some sanctioned event. I can have a dozen people who would vouch for me and have videotape evidence to prove it, but it still doesn't mean beans.

It seems to me that the competitive rowers shouldn't worry about these times because if it doesn't happen at an event that allows scrutiny by the rowing community and officials of some sort, it is just a claim. World records should be set at race events, not in the living room.

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Post by Wiecher » March 30th, 2006, 10:57 am

Hello Rick Bayco,

I think your thought a very right.
I myself am not very interested anymore in the ranking because of that Dwayne story. And even worse, I will not enter my (race) results or any test results anymore. It does not make any sense to me in a ranking with cheaters...cheaters that we know of.
:(

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Post by Daren » March 30th, 2006, 11:05 am

Wiecher wrote:Hello Rick Bayco,

I think your thought a very right.
I myself am not very interested anymore in the ranking because of that Dwayne story. And even worse, I will not enter my (race) results or any test results anymore. It does not make any sense to me in a ranking with cheaters...cheaters that we know of.
:(
It does make sense. The more genuine people rank their times, the greater the overal validity of the ranking system. Every legitimate time that isn't added adds a little bit of weight to any illegitimate ones.

Still, if you wish not to rank your own times because a minority of others may be suspect, that is of course your prerogative.
[b]Daren[/b]
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hjs
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Post by hjs » March 30th, 2006, 11:20 am

Daren wrote:
Wiecher wrote:Hello Rick Bayco,

I think your thought a very right.
I myself am not very interested anymore in the ranking because of that Dwayne story. And even worse, I will not enter my (race) results or any test results anymore. It does not make any sense to me in a ranking with cheaters...cheaters that we know of.
:(
It does make sense. The more genuine people rank their times, the greater the overal validity of the ranking system. Every legitimate time that isn't added adds a little bit of weight to any illegitimate ones.

Still, if you wish not to rank your own times because a minority of others may be suspect, that is of course your prerogative.
The rankings aren,t serious to begin with. Most races are not ranked. almost non of the european races are ranked.
It would be not to difficult for c2 to rank all officiale races.

I have ranked times which were done in races but are simply put in as IND.

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Post by whp4 » March 30th, 2006, 1:05 pm

hjs wrote: It would be not to difficult for c2 to rank all officiale races.
Says the man who doesn't have to do all the work :wink:

I suspect it is more work than you imagine. They don't even rank all the CRASH-B qualifying regattas in the US!

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Re: Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

Post by row4life » March 30th, 2006, 5:59 pm

Yankeerunner wrote: A.) The first Huh? came at those dinner tables. He seemed somewhat clueless about simple things like drag factor and raved about how much he was learning. I suppose that doesn't seem all that unusual, since we all started that way. But he was a guy with a 6:01.5 who got the free trip based an assumption that he was one of the most likely of all the ergers in America to win a gold medal in his division. One of the reasons often given for belief in his scores is that he was twice observed by qualified people in his USIRT trials. With all the time at the boathouse and training to reach 6:01.5 and observations by USIRT people he learned next to nothing compared to what he learned in a couple of minutes at the dinner table? Possible, I suppose, but unlikely, I believe.
Somewhere on the old forum, he mentioned that he was self taught, and got alot of coaching from Lisa Schlenker and Jamie Schroeder after BIRC.
B.) BIRC. Something just didn't seem right. It was just a subjective feeling, but it didn't LOOK like a 6:01 guy on the erg (guys like Nik Fleming, Tony Larkman & Chris Rushton did) and the big screen was showing 1:37's (6:28 pace) before the back injury. Still, you want to believe. Maybe just a diamond in the rough. If he's legit we'll be hearing from him in the future.

Less than two months later his profile notes that he broke 6:00. A 5:56.1 on January 8, 2003 that ended up being the only non-race time in the top 18 30-39 Hwts for the year. And he entered a race in California. Great. We will get to see the potential come to fruition. Then,
See comments from 'A'.
C.) He races and doesn't even break 7:00, let alone 6:00. Cognition is chipping away at Emotion. The report is that he was sick. Maybe he is extraordinarily unlucky.
I also remember reading that he had the flu that day, but raced anyway. Not a bad time for puking your guts up all day.
D.) Did not Start at the European Championship. Slipped in the shower just before. Shucks! Not only extraordinarily unlucky but mega-extraordinarily unlucky. Cognition overwhelms Emotion. Maybe it's the worst case of stage fright in sports history. That's about the most optimistic explanation that some of us can muster and still hope that this great guy is what he claims to be.
No comment on this one. Does sound like a case of stage fright.
E.) that he cried when he saw Graham's time because he KNEW he would have won instead. The gall. A guy with a 100% failure rate in public appearances raining on the parade of a worthy champion. I've never seen a more blatant cry for attention. When I didn't support him he played the loyalty card to try to make me feel guilty, complaining that I wasn't supporting a fellow American. By now his privately rowed PB was down to 5:49.1, ahead of James Cracknell and just slightly behind Matthew Pinsent as 2nd for the year in the 30-39 Hwt rankings. He apparently figured that was sufficient to claim superiority over Benton and question his worthiness as champion. I seemed to be pretty much alone in my view though. I acknowledge that some of my friends who remember that episode don’t see it as I do. But I don’t know how anyone who has looked at the faces of their fellow competitors at CRASH-B’s can see it any other way. I wish Chippy and Taffy had been around then and maybe things could have been nipped there.
If I remember his comment on this correctly, he had a 'smiley' face and a 'winky' face. This would suggest to me that he was joking.
F.) some "previously done but unrecorded meters" were found at the last minute to sweep him into first place in quantity as well as quality.
No comment on this one. Who knows what was going on?
G.) The Olympic Gold medalist at the top of his athletic career, presumably training about as hard and as long as is believed possible without breaking down. On the other hand we have a 40+ age-group erger training at a higher volume, doing serious weight training, holding down a full-time job, having family duties to a wife and child, being one of the most prolific posters on the forum, maintaining email correspondence and support to his fellow ergers, and doing times that are faster than what Olympic champions have done. Day after day, year round, year after year. Possible?, maybe. Likely?, I seriously doubt it.
Ranger puts in more time than he does, and nobody is giving him crap about it. So why give DA crap about it?
H.) Dwayne and only Dwayne refused to use his, saying that he donated it to his gym, thereby sidestepping any attempt by C2 to verify what he did. No one knew at that time that the PM3 could be fooled. He wasn’t singled out as a potential cheat. It wasn’t an issue of his honor being questioned. All team members were sent the PM3 for verification. But he chose to keep his scores unverified, and that seems suspicious to some of us.
No comment on this one.
I.)Last summer he traveled from the southern part of the United States to Edmonton in Canada for the water rowing Masters races. At that sport he is at best mediocre. His boats were not close to winning and his times were beaten by boats with older lightweights in them whose 2kms on the erg are barely within a minute of Dwayne’s reported times (although faster than his actual race times). Yet he took the time, did the traveling, and spent the money. It doesn’t make sense to me that the supposedly fastest erger in the world would do that yet remain uninterested in competing at his specialty. Another thing that is possible, but something that is so unlike anything I’ve ever seen in sports that it strains credulity.
He's never claimed to be a good rower. There is a difference. He even said how the conditions in Canada weren't anything like what him and his bowman were used to. Anyone that has ever rowed a boat can tell you that can make a big difference.

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Re: Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

Post by Francois » March 30th, 2006, 6:44 pm

row4life wrote:Ranger puts in more time than he does, and nobody is giving him crap about it. So why give DA crap about it?
Ranger was a WR holder and just did a 6:29 in a public race this year as a 55 years old borderline HW. In short, he delivered!

Moreover, Ranger has been quite explicit (and vocal!) about his training regimen, which seems not to be the case with DA.
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Post by fish » March 30th, 2006, 6:47 pm


"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for honest people to do nothing"


This whole thing reminds me of Florence Griffith-Joyner. “Flo-Jo” holds the world record in the 200 meter amidst allegations of drug use. And since she never failed a drug test, her record still stands.

Concept 2 provides rowers an opportunity to rank their times against other rowers. If you look at the bottom of the rankings page, there are rules to follow. I followed those rules and I believe that most others also follow those rules. And the rankings are fun. I have no delusions that they are anything more than that.

I disagree that evil will prevail if I don’t publicly denounce every suspect entry, that the system only works if we all get together accuse each other of being cheaters. Since I have not have access to the necessary information and have no control over what happens, my opinions on whether Dwayne Adams cheated or not is irrelevant. For those of you that feel strongly about this, perhaps a more constructive thing to do is to go through official channels and voice your concerns. You would at least would get the perspective of Concept 2 and why certain times are allowed to remain in the rankings.

Are you all expecting this endless speculation to result in the removal of Dwayne Adams, time(s)? Or is evil thwarted by the constant harassment that is taking place on this forum?

And where does it stop? In Rick Bayko’s post, there are allegations of other suspect times. Why doesn’t he list them so we all know who they are? By remaining silent, isn’t evil going to prevail? Shouldn’t we harass them too, until they prove or withdraw their times? Is that going to happen to me if I chose not to race? Should I abandon the rankings like Weicher because there might be cheaters or even worse, someone will call me a cheater?

Unfortunately, cheating is a part of sport. Many records are held by cheaters (did they take away Flo-Jo’s record?).

I have been a member of this forum for about 5 months. During that time, a majority of posts have concerned Dwayne Adams. Maybe comments about Dwayne Adams could be written in the FAQ so newbies will be aware of the situation. And then we could get back to the debate about who invented that 8x500 workout...

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Post by johnnybike » March 30th, 2006, 7:27 pm

fish wrote:
"All that is necessary for evil to prevail is for honest people to do nothing"


TIn Rick Bayko’s post, there are allegations of other suspect times. Why doesn’t he list them so we all know who they are? By remaining silent, isn’t evil going to prevail? Shouldn’t we harass them too, until they prove or withdraw their times?
Whilst I am very supportive of Rick's post and honesty, which is something "Chad" will never live up to, the weakness of the argument is the naming of the names. It is easy to cast general aspersions with no particular focus and then everybody looks around to see if they can guess who it can be.

I don't think that helps the sport one iota. In a sport where it is difficult, nay impossible, to prove I rowed a 6K PB tonight we are all under a cloud if we follow that line of argument.
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Re: Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

Post by row4life » March 30th, 2006, 9:08 pm

Francois wrote:
row4life wrote:Ranger puts in more time than he does, and nobody is giving him crap about it. So why give DA crap about it?
Ranger was a WR holder and just did a 6:29 in a public race this year as a 55 years old borderline HW. In short, he delivered!

Moreover, Ranger has been quite explicit (and vocal!) about his training regimen, which seems not to be the case with DA.
Matthais Siejkowski is the fastest man (person) to have ever done a 2k, and he was always very reluctant to share his training. So DA is not alone in this. It's his right to share what he wants, and what he doesn't want.

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Re: Emotion, Cognition, Faith & Erg Scores

Post by GeorgeD » March 30th, 2006, 9:21 pm

row4life wrote:
Francois wrote:
row4life wrote:Ranger puts in more time than he does, and nobody is giving him crap about it. So why give DA crap about it?
Ranger was a WR holder and just did a 6:29 in a public race this year as a 55 years old borderline HW. In short, he delivered!

Moreover, Ranger has been quite explicit (and vocal!) about his training regimen, which seems not to be the case with DA.
Matthais Siejkowski is the fastest man (person) to have ever done a 2k, and he was always very reluctant to share his training. So DA is not alone in this. It's his right to share what he wants, and what he doesn't want.
I agree, but does Matthais take part in the forums activities, rank all his distances, and belong to an IRC and enjoin of the CTC?? I dont believe he does therefore he is not exactly part of the community, but I think what people are getting at is that Dwayne does partake of the 'communal' pleasure as it suits but not always where it counts.

You are right in that Dwayne does not 'have' to do anything but for me the people I feel sorry the most for are the Taffs as they embraced him and fought for him and yet he has chosen not to stand beside them. He donated his PM3 to a gym so he must have some dealings with them, and if at anytime he had gone along at a pre-arranged time (with plenty of independant witnesses) and rowed a sub 6:00 2k which would have been an easy row then all this would have been laid to rest - he choose not to.

Is Dwayne a cheat, I dont know. Does Dwayne stand by his team and do the 'hard yards' to defend their honour (not just his), he does not and that is sad in my opinion.

George

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Post by Daren » March 31st, 2006, 3:46 am

fish wrote:I disagree that evil will prevail if I don’t publicly denounce every suspect entry
I didn't refer to this in terms of evil, nor did I say people should jump upon suspicion. What I said was "all that it takes for a cheat to prosper is for those than know he cheated to say nothing." In other words, I think people that do know that someone is cheating but don't say anything are a problem. (By "know", I mean know, not "suspect".)
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Probably Enough

Post by tennstrike » March 31st, 2006, 11:01 am

Rick:

A lot of time and thought went into your post. Well done. Impossible not to agree with just about all of the logic even if one's own conclusion may not be as absolute. But yours is totally understandable.

This thread has certainly produced the most civil discourse on the subject and I agree very much with one of the posters that reading the posts on this particular subject gives you an insight into the poster.

It's been fun reading the thread.

Jeff
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500 1:38.7 | 1K 3:29.2 | 2K 7:16.9 | 5K 19:14.0 | 6K 23:12.3 | 10K 39:40.5 | Started rowing June05

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Post by fish » March 31st, 2006, 1:11 pm

Daren wrote: (By "know", I mean know, not "suspect".)
Isn't all of this just suspicion. I have my own opinions but I don't "know" whether Dwayne Adams cheated or not.

Flo-Jo has several Olympic Medals and a world record and I "know" she cheated. That bothers me but USA Track and Field was unable to prove her steriod use. And it would bother me more if she were stripped of her medals and records based on some collective opinion instead of following a set procedure and hard evidence.

And here we are, getting together and deciding someone cheated. No formal procedures, not hard evidence. We may not like that a cheater "gets away with it", but that is better than a system based on the collective opinion.

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