Ranking 2K 40-49 Hwts

[Daren]

Would your method have fooled a witness to the row?

Only if that witness were blind, and possibly deaf to make obsolutely certain. =)

[Chad Williams]

The thing is and will always remain that I know the truth that surrounds Dwayne, you do not, and you may never find the truth.

Dwayne has admitted his own guilt by not performing at any public venue.

[Daren]

The thing is and will always remain that I know the truth that surrounds Dwayne, you do not, and you may never find the truth.

The thing is, we only have your word for that. The point is that you can bluster all you like, but there is still no proof forthcoming. If someone that can demonstrate that Dwayne's cheating the system cares enough to step forward and offer that proof, fair enough. If not, I think you should let it lie.

Dwayne has admitted his own guilt by not performing at any public venue.

What absolute poppycock.

So, I buy an item from a shop and tell you I've bought it. You accuse me of stealing it. Because I don't then go to a different shop and buy another of the same item so you can watch me do it, I'm guilty of stealing the first item?

Ridiculous.

[PaulS]

Would your method have fooled a witness to the row?

Only if that witness were blind, and possibly deaf to make obsolutely certain. =)

But the term "done easily" was used, and this implies that a single person should be capable of accomplishing it all on their lonesome. So perhaps there is a more vulnerable flaw than the "relay" or "substitute" methods that have been mentioned.

Of course the whole "what is the reward" for posting a fake time question still remains. And more to the point, what does anyone elses time in the rankings have to do with any of our times? Don't we simply do what we can, and then try to improve upon that? New folks go from pulling a 10 min 2k to pulling a 9 minute 2k in the first couple weeks, and often conclude that they will be sub-7 in the next month or so, only to find out that it gets a bit tougher than intially thought. Does that fact that there are plenty of sub-6 folks mean anything to that person, other than they might think "holy smokes! you gotta be kidding!"?

Of course if we had a stroke by stroke record of the force profile (i.e. ErgMonitor data file) it would be pretty easy to determine a relay or other deceptive effort.

Cheers.

[ancho]

I sure wanted to stay out of this, but I can't:

Chad: can you prove YOUR time is fake??

[hjs]

Darin: thanks for bringing this to a closure. Chad: we can assume that you will come clean with C2 so that they can address whatever it is you did. I agree that you probably shouldn't post here how to cheat. Would your method have fooled a witness to the row? There is still no evidence to question that 3 of Dwayne's rows were witnessed, and that even recently one of the those witnesses was contacted by someone on this forum and they confirmed the row and time.

I was opposed to adding the ind-v system last year, and I still favor having the rankings be based on trust and honor so I would prefer that C2 not add additional restrictions.

Let's say chad rowed the 5.44 not alone but in a relay. 4 man each 500 m. This way youd have have the data for the row and also the witnesses.

[Francois]

Darin, I don't want to search around the old forum to try to find this, so I will ask you or any one else who remembers. I thought that C2 said that the verification system would detect a relay event, by the variation in the stroke data? Am I remembering that wrong?

If that was the case, Dwayne would never have got his IND_V, since his stroke rates varied from 26 to 50 spm.

Quite frankly, I am disgusted by the sad reality that some people are posting fake times. In my view, that makes the whole "honours" system collapse, as I can no longer trust the times of people faster than me, and conversely, anybody is entitled to distrust the times I am posting.

Well, I guess, I am better off devoting my time and energy to swimming where that kind of cheating does not happen!

Happy training everybody (cheaters included)!

Francois

[Chad Williams]

The thing is, we only have your word for that. The point is that you can bluster all you like, but there is still no proof forthcoming

I am not going to do 100's of posts on this, read my post on why the proof can not be made public.

Dwayne needs to clear his name by showing what he claimes he can do, this is the way it works in sport.

[hjs]

The thing is and will always remain that I know the truth that surrounds Dwayne, you do not, and you may never find the truth.

The thing is, we only have your word for that. The point is that you can bluster all you like, but there is still no proof forthcoming. If someone that can demonstrate that Dwayne's cheating the system cares enough to step forward and offer that proof, fair enough. If not, I think you should let it lie.

Dwayne has admitted his own guilt by not performing at any public venue.

What absolute poppycock.

So, I buy an item from a shop and tell you I've bought it. You accuse me of stealing it. Because I don't then go to a different shop and buy another of the same item so you can watch me do it, I'm guilty of stealing the first item?

Ridiculous.

In sports you have to proof your performances not the other way around.

If you claim that you run the 100m in 9.8 I can,t proof you didn,t but I can say without any doubt that you didn,t and are a liar.
This also goes for the times claimed by Adams. Everything looks that he can,t do it. In sports this simply means: SHOW IT! IF YOU CAN,T YOU ARE A LIAR.

[Daren]

The thing is, we only have your word for that. The point is that you can bluster all you like, but there is still no proof forthcoming

I am not going to do 100's of posts on this, read my post on why the proof can not be made public.

Yes, yes, yes, I got that. I even reiterated it for you. However, the fact remains that without any proof, there's no reason for anyone to condemn Dwayne, specifically, or anyone else generally.

Would you expect a person on trial in a Court of Law to be convicted on the basis of testimony that amounts to "I know he did it, but I can't tell you what I know"? I would hope not; but that's tantamount to the same thing.

[gcanyon]

Yes, yes, yes, I got that. I even reiterated it for you. However, the fact remains that without any proof, there's no reason for anyone to condemn Dwayne, specifically, or anyone else generally.

Would you expect a person on trial in a Court of Law to be convicted on the basis of testimony that amounts to "I know he did it, but I can't tell you what I know"? I would hope not; but that's tantamount to the same thing.

A court of law is a different forum entirely. The concept of innocent until proven guilty puts the burden on the accuser. There are many forums:

-- Sporting results
-- Scientific experiments
-- Paranormal researchers

Where the burden of proof is on the claimant. If I say, "I can hit a baseball over that fence," and you say, "I don't believe you," is the burden on you to somehow prove I can't, or on me to hit the baseball?

It is (somewhat) unfair to single out Dwayne, but the fact remains that he puts himself in that position by claiming such remarkable times. Chad hasn't handled it well, but it is anyone's right to call shenanigans.

[Daren]

Yes, yes, yes, I got that. I even reiterated it for you. However, the fact remains that without any proof, there's no reason for anyone to condemn Dwayne, specifically, or anyone else generally.

Would you expect a person on trial in a Court of Law to be convicted on the basis of testimony that amounts to "I know he did it, but I can't tell you what I know"? I would hope not; but that's tantamount to the same thing.

A court of law is a different forum entirely. The concept of innocent until proven guilty puts the burden on the accuser. There are many forums:

-- Sporting results
-- Scientific experiments
-- Paranormal researchers

Where the burden of proof is on the claimant. If I say, "I can hit a baseball over that fence," and you say, "I don't believe you," is the burden on you to somehow prove I can't, or on me to hit the baseball?

It is (somewhat) unfair to single out Dwayne, but the fact remains that he puts himself in that position by claiming such remarkable times. Chad hasn't handled it well, but it is anyone's right to call shenanigans.

I know what you mean gcanyon, and I accept what you're saying. However, Dwayne's "failure" to row 5:45 at a public event is simply not proof that he can't. It's not proof that he's lying. It simply isn't. At best it demonstrates only that he hasn't on those occasions that have been public competition. Sure, people can say "we don't believe you can do it", and yes, without any verifiable public display it's reasonable to question it and may lend weight to suspicion, but it's not proof of cheating.

[Porkchop]

I am not going to do 100's of posts on this . . .

[Porkchop]

Chad hasn't handled it well . . .

The very definition of "understatement."

[RowtheRockies]

The bottom line is only one person (perhaps two according to Chad) knows if Dwayne is for real or not. The preponderance of evidence sugests to me that his times are not real but it is all circumstantial and speculative.

Chad has done a good job of showing that the times can be manipulated but the only way we will ever know for sure is for Dwayne to show his stuff in a public race. That said, I will personally put up $100.00 to the winner of a grudge match 2K between Dwayne and Chad. Any one else want to throw in some money? This would be awesome to watch! The rule is that they have to both row at the same sanctioned event. Perhaps the BIRC. My money is on Chad.

Rich