Model E coming in September?

[johnlvs2run]

Isn't it true that keeping the boat as level as possible throughout a race is the best course of action.

Additionally, a boat is the same height at the end of a race, as it is at the start of the race.

When you are racing a boat on a lake, the boat doesn't rise up to a higher level at the finish, and it doesn't go down to a lower one.

[brianric]

So this is how many words it takes to say absolutely nothing worthwhile. (If I missed something worthwhile, please correct me.)

Is there anyone who is forcing you to upgrade? Why the ridiculous insults? Oh yeah, I forgot, that's what you do.

Before you, John, jump on me for saying these this, consider that most people are going to feel the same way. If you don't think so, make a poll and you will find out.

Personally, I like the look of the new graphics and the color of the E, the nickel plated chain is a nice way to "pimp your Erg" I guess, but the rechargeable capability is of course very practical.

I do believe this is a forum for discussion on different subjects. Just because John has a different view than you have, instead of discussing the merits of the Model E, you slam the guy for expressing his opinion. Or do you prefer the forums be like a George W Bush town house meeting, where everyone praises the company's actions, with nary a dissenting voice to be heard.

[whp4]

I've already said that it's not useful to me and I'm not going to buy it.

Is that so hard to understand.

Obviously any company that doesn't understand what the consumer is saying is not going to sell as much product as they would if they listened to what the consumer was looking for. This holds true whether the company is me, c2, pauls, mark pukita or whoever.

Sure, I hope c2 sells a lot of them.

However, if c2 really wanted to sell a lot of ergs then they would listen to what the consumer was looking for. Personally I think they are not interested in doing this. So don't get all excited. They are having fun with a niche. And those of you in the niche that want to pay $350 for a nickel coated chain will be able to enjoy it.

You've proudly proclaimed in the past that you've never bought a new erg. Given how much you complain about "defects" in the design that no one else thinks are a problem, and state that the new features that are introduced have no usefulness for you, when coupled with your purchasing history, the rational economic decision would be to write you off as an inconsequential crank, not worth pursuing as a customer. Certainly there isn't much evidence to suggest that if only they made the machine with a level railing, as you propose, sales would soar!

It is also not a given that the customer knows best what the product should be. My colleagues and I had numerous conversations with customers who were sure they knew just what we should build at cisco. In fact, it was a pretty rare customer who had sufficient vision to imagine generally useful solutions rather than just a "band-aid" fix for whatever problem they imagined they had. The customers who were most insistent that they knew the ideal fix often commented that they were glad we hadn't listened! Unless you have a customer who is a specialist in matters regarding the product in question, it is likely that the people who actually design and build the product have a better grasp of the details and trade-offs. Customer input can be a good source of ideas for improvement, but usually those ideas need substantial work before they are product quality. Obviously, design choices which run counter to what might be thought of as the obvious choice by the neophyte require more effort in sales and marketing, but in my opinion it is much better to build the superior product and educate the customer into buying it than to build a piece of junk that is easily sold to the uninformed.

Bill

[Ray79]

I have one question for John, and it is a serious one.

Why do you say the rail still seems to go into a dip, and why do you see it as a design flaw that has not been fixed?

I was under the impression that this was all part of the design and is not something that has been merely overlooked as it is similar to the slide angle in a boat.

It has been a very long time since I rowed on the water, but as I remember it, the slide was sloped similar to the slope of the C2 Erg. I never argued with JR on this before because it has been so long and I was not sure if this had changed.

Can someone who currently rows on water confirm whether the slide in a shell still slopes down toward the stern.

Thanks

Fred Dickie

Yes Fred the slide in any shells I have ever been in slope towards the stern - when the boat is level i must stress.

I was under the impression that the Erg has this slope too and it was deliberate. Thats why I asked John why he felt it was a design flaw, but he decided to go off on one and post nonsensical statements about racing on the water and how level the boat should be during a race, which is in no way connected to what i asked.

[Dickie]

I have one question for John, and it is a serious one.

Why do you say the rail still seems to go into a dip, and why do you see it as a design flaw that has not been fixed?

I was under the impression that this was all part of the design and is not something that has been merely overlooked as it is similar to the slide angle in a boat.

It has been a very long time since I rowed on the water, but as I remember it, the slide was sloped similar to the slope of the C2 Erg. I never argued with JR on this before because it has been so long and I was not sure if this had changed.

Can someone who currently rows on water confirm whether the slide in a shell still slopes down toward the stern.

Thanks

Fred Dickie

Yes Fred the slide in any shells I have ever been in slope towards the stern - when the boat is level i must stress.

I was under the impression that the Erg has this slope too and it was deliberate. Thats why I asked John why he felt it was a design flaw, but he decided to go off on one and post nonsensical statements about racing on the water and how level the boat should be during a race, which is in no way connected to what i asked.

OK, confirmed, this is a red letter day, John Rupp is actually half right, there is a design flaw!! Unfortunately for John the Design flaw is not with the C2 Erg, it is in that space between his ears.

Fred Dickie

[johnlvs2run]

You've proudly proclaimed in the past that you've never bought a new erg.

It is very sad that Whp4 Bill is making up all these things.

Please ban him from the forum for crapflooding.

[johnlvs2run]

I purchased a model B in 1993. When inquiring for the purchase, I asked c2 both verbally and in writing if they were planning a new model of either the rowing machine or the monitor. Their answer was they had no plans for either of these. Soon after my purchase I received an ergo update newsletter where c2 proudly displayed the new model C rowing machine!

I'd been had, suckered, and c2 had my money, for sticking me with their old stock, when they could has well have told me they'd have a new model coming out soon, of both the rowing machine and the monitor.

When the model D came out the same thing had happened. There were numerous posts on the forum about people who had asked c2 about new models, been told no, purchased a model C then, viola! the model D came out quite soon after that. I can insure you these people were not happy.

Bill, you obviously don't know much about marketing and selling a product. If you applied that philosophy to Ebay, for example, you would be shot out the back door.

The computer and car industries announce well in advance when they have new models, new computers, and new programs coming out. In fact they pay big money to make such announcements. They don't keep customers in the dark. Granted the auto industry is far behind times in providing what customers want, and their usual line is to tell people they don't really want what they do, figuring people are stuck with whatever they sell. The computer industry is far more successful. Prices keep coming down and the product keeps getting better and better.

Can you imagine if computers kept getting slower and more bulky and the prices kept going up? Apparently you are able to do this. But not everyone, in fact most people, are not going to agree with you and the bottom line is they are not going to purchase your product, unless you provide to them what they want and are looking for.

In the case of cars and people feel they need to have one they will buy one. But no one really needs a rowing machine. People are only going to buy a rowing machine when they want to have one.

[johnlvs2run]

Ray79"]the slide in any shells I have ever been in slope towards the stern - when the boat is level i must stress.[/quote]
Have you ever been in a shell in Denmark, or only in the U.S. which is always out of the medals. Do you think the boats rowed by the Olympic and World Champions are the same as the ones that you've been in.

People in the U.S. feel in order to get the slide as low as possible the only way to do this is if the slide is slanted and that if you had the slide flat it would need to be much higher. I have been told by people on the forum that the slide has to be slanted in a boat because it's the only way it will fit. That doesn't make sense to me but then I am not interested to row in a boat. I am willing to bet I could design a flat slide for one if I did.

However, regardless of that, one of the purposes along with having the slide in a boat is to keep the boat as level as possible, i.e. not rocking back and forth with each stroke. The position of the slide is most dictated by the intention of this. "If" the boat rocked more with the slide level and less with it tilted then it would be better to have the slide tilted but that doesn't mean the rower is doing to go up and down as this depends on the position of the boat in the water. If the boat is tilting down at the end of the drive and the slide is up higher then the rower has kept level. On the other hand if the boat stays more level with the slide being level, then this is the much better choice for the position of it. When saying level I mean keeping to the best boat angle for forward progress and momentum, with the intention of eliminating all excess bobbing up and down of either the boat or the rower.

So you don't look at the position of the slide to look at the levelness of the rower in a boat, you look at the position of the boat and the rower.

On an erg it is very easy to just look at the position of the railing, as the position of the rower relative to level is going to be the same as the position of slide.

[Ray79]

Have you ever been in a shell in Denmark, or only in the U.S. which is always out of the medals.

What makes you think I have ever been in a shell in the US or Denmark (wherever that came from ). I have been in shells in the UK and Ireland (where quite a few medals go) and I have seen Olympic class boats up close used by the Dutch U23's who aren't too shabby either and they were all the same.

Do you think the boats rowed by the Olympic and World Champions are the same as the ones that you've been in.

In Short, Yes.

[Gus]

Just a couple of points for those who might be thinking of waiting to get a Model E instead of a Model D for their personal use.

One of the things I like about the D is that it sits low enough to the floor that I can easily grab the towel I lay on the floor next to the erg. While I could get a chair or table and put it next to the erg to use for the towel or water bottle, I like to alternate hands for toweling off and drinking and then just drop towel or bottle off on either side. Of course, I'm at home and don't mind my towel laying on the floor. A gym floor would be different.

Also I usually erg watching DVD movies on my television which is on a floor stand directly in front of the erg. If the erg was any taller it would block the view of the TV especially the subtitles which I need because I can't always understand the dialogue over the noise of the erg and fans I use.

Based on what I read from C2 about the E, I would probably still want the D. Now the PM4 would tempt me, but I understand it will be offered on the D.

[Sasha]

Gus, I agree with all of your reasons. Let me add that at 5'2" the D seems like the right height to me. I have no desire to feel like I have to climb up as I often do with a bicycle. Of course if I were 6'5" I'd probably feel differently.

[Ducatista]

My very arthritic mom rowed into her 80s. Eventually getting on and off the rower was the most challenging part of her workout. She'd have loved the new E. I can see other possible advantages to the higher seat, from an easier view out the window to having a fixed TV height work equally well for rowing or potatoing.

I'm happy with the height of my C, and I've always been fond of the less-friendly look of it, so I'm not in a rush to trade up. But the new height, chain, and PM capabilities sound like fine upgrades for those who like the bling and have the ching.

[Barry]

Can anyone tell me when the D-model came out did the C-Model drop in price prior to d-models release...?? I am ready to purchase, but am not sure if I should wait for Sept. 1 to see if there is any significant price reduction...Any thoughts..??


Barry

[johnlvs2run]

They didn't drop the price last time.

They basically sold out the C's and then started selling the D's.

This time it looks like they're going to keep selling both of them, maybe because of the huge difference in price

[RyanG]

hello

While this may sound stupid the other night i was attempting to teach my mother how to row strangley enough she seemed to pull harder with her arms rather then push with her legs (the split was lower with fixed slide as opposed to legs only rowing)so i made her do some legs only rowing i encouraged her to push harder and well she lifted her self off the seat and fell off. it was hilarious how ever mum wasnt laughing she eneded up with a giant bruise from where she fell on the slide and hit the ground and her feet were still stuck in the foot strecher. if this was to happen on the model e im sure the consequences would be far worse with possibly a broke, fractured, sprained ankle due to the longer fall etc i know it isnt a regualr occurance but people do some times faint.

Ryan