Getting more data from my PM5?!

[Stefankinell]

Hi all,
Got my SkiErg in January and just love the workouts I can do on it. Last winter I used one in the gym and easily decided to get one of my own for this winter. The device is the new black SkiErg with the PM5 monitor. Currently running version 17 beta firmware, which for SkiErg is labeled 717.

One thing I immediately started to look into was how I could get more statistics out of my training. To be able to analyse after the sessions. Being used to what I get from my Garmin device after running or biking, where I can see graphs of speed, heart rate, altimeter etc after a session I wanted something more than what the usb-logbook gave me with the more simple average per intervall data for heart rate, spm, power, speed. And to be able to export the data, e.g. to a .fit-file or similar so it could be uploaded to other online training logs, for analysis and or sharing with friends, that not necessarily use Concept2-devices as their training equipment today.

First option I looked at was of course the USB-log, the online logbook and the export to excel-features.
Result: only a table with average per interval as stated above.

Then I tried the ErgData-app. I got the same here, or at least I could not find any way of exporting data in a good way else but a table of basics to the online logbook. Great addition though to the PM5 monitor if you'd like to see more data on the fly.

Next up was the RowPro, where I got the demo version for a few weeks. I had major problems with the application shutting down, or rather freeze, half way through my sessions. I think I have realised this happened when my computer locked the screen and I had to enter my password again. But I never actually managed to get a possibility to look at the stats after a session. Perhaps this tool would do the trick, if it would work?

Next I ventured into the possibility to connect a Garmin device to the PM5 to get the data that way. When I saw this solution it seemed so simple and easy and would do exactly what I wanted. The newest forerunner I got - the 620 lacked the ability to connect to the PM5, Garmins fault I realised. My old watch - the 310 XT connected to the PM5 without any issues. Perfect, I thought! But here's a strange thing - when I connect my 310XT, I get speed and heartrate over time. But no power and no SPM reading. Here's an example: https://connect.garmin.com/activity/688892177

But at the same time I can see other users being able to get e.g. power to their 310XT, and I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that people have been able to save strokes per minutes as well. Here is one example of a guy that was able to record power with a 310XT and wrote about it on twitter: https://twitter.com/rainerjoswig/status ... 5961231361, his activity on Garmin connect: https://connect.garmin.com/activity/130342491

I have searched the web to see if there are other computer software PC or Mac, apps or watches that could help me do this. But I have not managed to find what I'm looking for, yet... any advices would be greatly appreciated!

Please move this topic to another part of the forum if it fits better there!

Best regards
Stefan

[Ebucher]

Hi Stefan

I'm having the exact same issue as you do. I would like to be able to record the extra live data from the ErgData app (stroke count, drive length, peak power, etc.) in to a text file or excel file for further analysis. It doesn't matter whether it's via USB to a PC or via Bluetooth to a mobile device. The current 20s splits in the Concept2 Utility software with average power output and strokes per minute is ok, but obviously there's much more to get out of the PM5.

Any ideas and or solutions would be much appreciated!

Regards
Elias

[pkiszk]

Get RowPro, SportTracks and plugin for importing RowPro workouts into ST and you have all the info you want, HR, power, cadence and speed/distance.

[Stefankinell]

pkszk - I tried RowPro, used the demo for a how ever long you got it for free. It did not work one single time to run a full session and get the data afterwards. Neither for export or analysis in the tool. So I did not opt for buying the RowPro software. But thanks for the advice. Does it work for you?

I'm so surprised that we are so few that would like this function. Else I assume this would be solved by now...

Thanks
Stefan

[reijersr]

Stefankinell- I've been wanting this kind of data for a long time. Today I received my new Model D with PM5. My 20 year old but in perfect shape Model C is standing proudly besides him.
Somehow, seeing the Ergdata app, the data could be captured and stored to analyse afterwards.
RowPro should be able to do the trick, but I would fancy a small smartphone app, with the ability to export to e.g. strava, Runkeeper etc.
I tried developing my own app using the interface of the PM3 in the past, but that didn't go as planned. Not enough time..

Currently I capture my heart rate with my Polar Multisports watch and lay that manually side to side with my averages. I create my own trainings to set the logtime/distance to the smallest amount possible.

Cheers,
Roeland

[A_H]

I really hope someone from the C2 monitor and wireless capabilities department could add to this discussion, especially to clarify things a bit after my post (I may be wrong below in some parts).

The C2 devices use the Ant+ FIT device profile (I think it was named FE, for fitness equipment, before). It supports stroke rate and power for rowers, but it may be that a PM5 doesn't send that data in real time with the profile. I'm not sure though. Maybe you meed to enable power metering and cadence in the 310XT?

In the Ant+ device directory: (http://www.thisisant.com/directory)
- All PM4 devices are listed as using the Ant+ HR and FIT profiles, whereas all models (rowers, Skierg) with the PM5 are listed as only implementing the HR profile. I guess they have the FIT profile, wrong in the directory?.
- Garmin 920 XT doesn't implement the FIT profile (I've also read they've dropped it for newr devices). The 910XT and the 310XT have the FIT device profile capability.

As far as I understand, this is not hardware related, only software related. You may choose what profiles to implement in your watch/rower/etc.

My preference would be that C2 instead of FIT implement the standard cycling trainer profile (PWR). If they would, a PM5 could pair to any watch/head unit/app that supports cycling power (especially if it would also act as a cycling power meter on the Bluetooth side), and then send real time power data. In addition, it would need to implement the bicycle Speed and Cadence (S&C) profile, to send speed and SPM data. Also rebroadcast any HR signal picked up (an Ant+ strap could pair to both your PM5 and your watch at the same time, but if you would use an iPhone or similar with only BT, a BT strap can only connect to one device at a time - but if you would pair it to the PM5 and the PM5 would rebroadcat the HR as well as power, speed, spm etc to the iPhone it would work.

If they would, you could use a Skierg or rower with any available cycling app or program, eg. Trainer Road for structured workouts, software for virtual routes, etc (no resistance changes though as advanced cycling trainers have).

Funny thing, when writing this I looked at the Ant+ device directory - e.g. the Vasa Swim Ergometer implements the Ant+ PWR profile, so it's capable of all the above.

Comparing rowing (and Skierg) to cycling trainer market, the rowing community are about 5 years behind in terms of software used etc. Implementing the PWR profile on the PM5 would instantly fix that lag, as all the software already exists.

[Citroen]

The way I read it the PM5 implements ALL of the short range radio signals that are in the PM4 and adds BTLE.

[A_H]

Sure - I think PM5 is like a PM4 on the Ant+ side and it adds BTLE as well.

But wireless transfer is much more than just the basic standards implemented, as e.g. for Ant+ it differs a lot which device profile is implemented and used. In that way, a PM4 or PM5 can never be used with a 920XT, as that watch doesn't implement the Ant+ FIT device profile which the PM4/PM5 use. (unless it's possible through Connect IQ apps for the 920XT, but I don't think so?).

That's why I would prefer the PM5 to use an Ant+ PWR profile instead, as it's much more compatible with lots of products. It seems now from the Ant website that the hardware for a Ant+ FIT capability is a bit different from others, might be because of the proximity pairing thing - but maybe that's only an addition and the rest is the same. Maybe someone from C2 could add more info on whether a firmware upgrade could implement the PWR profile, with the current hardware.

Now, imagine if there would also be an upgrade allowing resistance lever control on the flywheel for C2 devices (e.g. as an add-on motor in some way), then the PM5 could also implement the coming cycling trainer resistance control profile (for Ant+, or the BT Smart equivalent) and change resistance, based on a virtual skiing course slope uo/down (or video synced grade adjustment) for a realistic and more varying skiing workout on a Skierg. Maybe not so much needed for a rower, since there's few uphills and downhills on the water, but it would add a lot more variation to at least the Skierg.

[Citroen]

Write your comments in an email to rowing@concept2.com

[Livio Livius]

Just a file format which can be uploaded to all kind of fitness platforms like TrainingPeaks etc. If PM5 could store the file in a separate folder and with the USB cable uploaded to internet. In a next release wifi upload would be nice.

[exerscreen]

...
One thing I immediately started to look into was how I could get more statistics out of my training. To be able to analyse after the sessions. Being used to what I get from my Garmin device after running or biking, where I can see graphs of speed, heart rate, altimeter etc after a session I wanted something more than what the usb-logbook gave me with the more simple average per intervall data for heart rate, spm, power, speed. And to be able to export the data, e.g. to a .fit-file or similar so it could be uploaded to other online training logs, for analysis and or sharing with friends, that not necessarily use Concept2-devices as their training equipment today.
...

Hi Stefan,

I'm working on PainSled, a dashboard and data collection app. I've only been using it with a rowing erg, but I'm curious to know if it would work with the SkiErg as well. It's in beta, and you can get it at http://painsled.com if you would like to give it a try.

There are some active users discussing it in the PainSled Indoor Rowing Dashboard discussion thread. Feel free to join us, and if you have some feature requests now is the time to promote them

Cheers,

Rick

[Stefankinell]

Hi exerscreen
This seems like the best option so far, by far

I tried to hook it up to the SkiErg and it recorded data just fine. I just did 110 meters to test the connection so not a full work out. I looked in the other thread and found some advices on how to transform the .csv file but did not get it to work. Will post there to get feedback on why I do not get it to work properly.

I will keep you posted!

Thanks
Stefan

[pkiszk]

Stefan,

As far as export from RowPro is concerned - yes, it works for me without a flaw. Have a look in my post on the subject here (at the end of page 1):

http://www.c2forum.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=84009

[exerscreen]

FYI, I posted PainSled Beta 6 yesterday am. It now supports Javascript user plugins to convert data. If you're into a bit of JS hacking you should be able to export workout data to any format. I've GitHub'ed a couple of example plugins for JSON and Garmin TCX. Discussion is over at PainSled Indoor Rowing Dashboard discussion.

Cheers,

Rick

[dr3do]

I have installed on my Android smartphone, which is ANT+ capable, a tool called ANT+ Plugin Sampler. With this tool, which "spoofs" to be watch, I can connect to my PM5 and get all sort of useful data. Like watts, SPM (cadence), stroke count, drive length (cycle length), speed (only m/s, not pace m/500m)…

Screenshot: http://imgur.com/zijFvQG

For me that means, the FIT profile is still implemented, but it is maybe buggy?