Concept2 Forum

On August second, 2022, World Rowing announced the regulations governing the 2023 Championships. The age group categories utilized previously, which included five-year intervals from 50 to 100, have been replaced by five-year intervals from 50 to 70, and a last category of 70+. This change seems unwise and unfair.

Sleigh wrote: ↑

August 6th, 2022, 11:09 am

On August second, 2022, World Rowing announced the regulations governing the 2023 Championships. The age group categories utilized previously, which included five-year intervals from 50 to 100, have been replaced by five-year intervals from 50 to 70, and a last category of 70+. This change seems unwise and unfair.

Am I reading this correctly? The results for 2022 only had a handful of entries total across all the 70+ age groups. https://worldrowing.com/event/2022-worl ... mpionships

I was expecting many more entries than I saw, so likely I am reading the results wrong. But it would be bad to become 3rd best indoor rower in the world in your age group by being dead flat last in a field of 3. Combined a field of 15 seems more reasonable.

But isn't there a huge power difference between a 70 year old and a 100 year old by definition? I can inmagine being pretty anoyed when a 99 year old sets a world record time, but loses the world championship to a guy almost 30 years younger. The 70 year old most likely win, given the physical degradation of the average 80 year old. I think we should celebrate these people, as they are not only the fastest in their age group, but a shining example for all of us to lead an active and healthy life. If there are only three in the age group, the better, they all make it to the podium and be in the spotlight where they belong.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

August 6th, 2022, 2:55 pm

But isn't there a huge power difference between a 70 year old and a 100 year old by definition? I can inmagine being pretty anoyed when a 99 year old sets a world record time, but loses the world championship to a guy almost 30 years younger. The 70 year old most likely win, given the physical degradation of the average 80 year old. I think we should celebrate these people, as they are not only the fastest in their age group, but a shining example for all of us to lead an active and healthy life. If there are only three in the age group, the better, they all make it to the podium and be in the spotlight where they belong.

+1

Anyone who is over 70, and still willing, and able, to compete is an inspiration in my book.

I also agree that it's a massive disincentive to enter if it's a 70+ age bracket, albeit it probably is really difficult to administer an event for 70+, so there's no ideal option.

Tsnor wrote: ↑

August 6th, 2022, 2:37 pm

Sleigh wrote: ↑

August 6th, 2022, 11:09 am

On August second, 2022, World Rowing announced the regulations governing the 2023 Championships. The age group categories utilized previously, which included five-year intervals from 50 to 100, have been replaced by five-year intervals from 50 to 70, and a last category of 70+. This change seems unwise and unfair.

Am I reading this correctly? The results for 2022 only had a handful of entries total across all the 70+ age groups. https://worldrowing.com/event/2022-worl ... mpionships

I was expecting many more entries than I saw, so likely I am reading the results wrong. But it would be bad to become 3rd best indoor rower in the world in your age group by being dead flat last in a field of 3. Combined a field of 15 seems more reasonable.

I've witnessed a sad decline in participation in the world championships since 1) World Rowing set up their own championship instead of using the CrashBs; 2) participation required "qualifying" with restricted numbers going forward rather than just entering and 3) both the championships and the qualification rounds went Virtual - obviously due to the Pandemic. The last of these seems particularly corrosive and slightly counter intuitive. One might think that being able to participate without the travel-to-the-venue-issues would increase participation - that's not what I've seen in either the Worlds or BRIC, quite the opposite. Setting up the tech required is not impossible but no doubt daunting to the less IT savvy which often includes the older sections of society. You need a decent internet link - still very patchy in the UK (my own link is just 1Mb on a good day over copper - although I have managed to get a reasonable 4G service). You also need not just the one device for the race s/w but a second to provide the video link. It excludes most gym users without access to a home erg - unless their gym can be persuaded to take part - very few do it seems.

So having effectively reduced the numbers of participants they now seem to be reacting by saying its not worth putting on the races for the few that do turn up. A sure fire self fulfilling prophecy. Completely muddled thinking and a potential death nell for the sport. I agree that its not a "race" if there's only one entrant. But its also not a race if the physical difference in participants will inevitably lead to the "winner" always being one of the youngest taking part. I don't see that there's a scheduling issue with low category participation as many catagories can be accommodated in the same physical heat. So is it the cost of the medals or that there's a perception that they're not deserved without opposition? Both of those arguments sound trivial to me and so easily overcome by either not awarding medals (just prestige) to unchallenged winners or adding a modest increase in entry fee to cover the extra (<20?) medals required.

There are of course also challenges with venue championships, particularly for the 80+ set who face increasing disincentives to travel as they age and for inclusive participation for those less affluent. Hopefully the answer to that is not: "Well there's not much point in holding a championship at all then..." The travel expenses paid for Qualification places that used to be provided by C2 was a wonderful answer to this. Come on WR, time to up your game!

Thanks Mike.

I sent the following email to World Rowing on August 6:

"My point is to express concern with respect to the age groupings contained in your announcement of August 2, 2022 outlining the regulations regarding the 2023 World Rowing Indoor Championships. Focus is on the fact that the last age group in the sequence is 70+, i.e., seventy and up. This replaces a previous sequence that went from seventy to one hundred in five-year intervals.
Full disclosure: I have a personal interest in this matter. I have trained hard, preparing to compete in 90 through 94 lightweight. Of course, I am disappointed. I have no plans to compete against seventy year olds. I would not bother you with my concerns if they were only, or even primarily, personal.
First, this change from what has been standard practice since the 1980s when the CRASH_Bs were the main annual event in indoor rowing seems obviously unfair to those in their 80s and 90s. I realize their numbers are small, but obvious unfairness is not removed by noting that the number of those treated unfairly is small.
Second, as the numbers of those surviving into their 80s and 90s increases it is important to establish the idea among them that an active life can be continued and enjoyed at quite advanced ages. The expectation is not that great numbers of people can be enticed to take up competitive erging. That's not the point. But the support of competitive rowing and erging among people of advanced age by a well-known and respected organization like World Rowing would have a beneficial effect over time."

I sent this to "indoor@worldrowing.com", which I have been informed is the relevant address. I hope that any of you who see this as I do, will let World Rowing know.

Sleigh wrote: ↑

August 7th, 2022, 8:50 am

Full disclosure: I have a personal interest in this matter. I have trained hard, preparing to compete in 90 through 94 lightweight.

May I take the opportunity to tell you that this is an inspiration to see people of 90+ still actively rowing and competing. Thank you, you are an inspiration for me.

Sleigh wrote: ↑

August 7th, 2022, 8:50 am

Second, as the numbers of those surviving into their 80s and 90s increases it is important to establish the idea among them that an active life can be continued and enjoyed at quite advanced ages. The expectation is not that great numbers of people can be enticed to take up competitive erging. That's not the point. But the support of competitive rowing and erging among people of advanced age by a well-known and respected organization like World Rowing would have a beneficial effect over time."

That's something that hadn't occurred to me, but it's a very valid comment, and inevitable conclusion is that not providing it as an option will all too quickly become a self-fulfilling prophecy: we don't have age brackets over 70 as there's no demand, but demand will diminish as there's no opportunity.

To be rowing when you're 90+ is a phenomenal achievement. More power to you and others like you.

Concept2 will no doubt still maintain the World Records. A WR at over 90 is as good as any medal. I see Bob Spenger still hold both 2k records since 2015 for 90-94 at times faster than I can do at age 81; someone may beat him, but can't take it away.

Sleigh wrote: ↑

August 7th, 2022, 8:50 am

I sent this to "indoor@worldrowing.com", which I have been informed is the relevant address. I hope that any of you who see this as I do, will let World Rowing know.

As suggested I put my points to the people who read indoor@worldrowing.com.

MPx wrote: ↑

August 7th, 2022, 6:53 am

I've witnessed a sad decline in participation in the world championships since 1) World Rowing set up their own championship instead of using the CrashBs; 2) participation required "qualifying" with restricted numbers going forward rather than just entering and 3) both the championships and the qualification rounds went Virtual - obviously due to the Pandemic. The last of these seems particularly corrosive and slightly counter intuitive. One might think that being able to participate without the travel-to-the-venue-issues would increase participation - that's not what I've seen in either the Worlds or BRIC, quite the opposite. Setting up the tech required is not impossible but no doubt daunting to the less IT savvy which often includes the older sections of society. You need a decent internet link - still very patchy in the UK (my own link is just 1Mb on a good day over copper - although I have managed to get a reasonable 4G service). You also need not just the one device for the race s/w but a second to provide the video link. It excludes most gym users without access to a home erg - unless their gym can be persuaded to take part - very few do it seems.

So having effectively reduced the numbers of participants they now seem to be reacting by saying its not worth putting on the races for the few that do turn up. A sure fire self fulfilling prophecy. Completely muddled thinking and a potential death nell for the sport.

Totally agree here. Hopefully we will return to the actual venues next year instead of being all virtual, with its attendant difficulties in setting up the equipment and internet connections to participate. The CRASH-Bs has always been a wonderful event as an in-person competition. I hope it returns to its roots in 2023 as the great event that it has always been, and that they don't follow the bad example of WorldRowing of throwing everyone over 70-74 into the trash heap unwanted old people.

Dangerscouse wrote: ↑

August 7th, 2022, 4:21 am

Anyone who is over 70, and still willing, and able, to compete is an inspiration in my book.

I also agree that it's a massive disincentive to enter if it's a 70+ age bracket, albeit it probably is really difficult to administer an event for 70+, so there's no ideal option.

FWIW There is at least one online rowing group for Over 60s who have a thriving group, many over 70/80s, currently the group has about 700 members on FB. Many compete and are frustrated to say the least as this proposal.

Its likley that classes will grow with online options, travelling half way round the world to compete is hard enough for younger athletes, it can be much tougher on the oldies.

Can anyone reach out to them to activate their user base as well? Would be a shame if such a large group is unaware they are tossed in a bin...

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

August 8th, 2022, 4:42 am

Can anyone reach out to them to activate their user base as well? Would be a shame if such a large group is unaware they are tossed in a bin...

If you are referring to the FB group (The Diamonds) then they are aware, a number have responded to various social media posts (including me).

It may be me being naive but it seems difficult to understand what the real cost of having the age categories for older rowers?

Taking the point that the numbers of older rowers will be fewer than those in their prime (assuming you define prime based on age that is!! ) however, it seems to me that there is little logical reason to exclude older rowers by lumping them together with their younger counter[parts, as i posted elsewhere, this would not be considered for adaptive athletes, men versus women, trans inclusion etc.

GlennUk wrote: ↑

August 8th, 2022, 7:34 am

Taking the point that the numbers of older rowers will be fewer than those in their prime (assuming you define prime based on age that is!! ) however, it seems to me that there is little logical reason to exclude older rowers by lumping them together with their younger counter[parts, as i posted elsewhere, this would not be considered for adaptive athletes, men versus women, trans inclusion etc.

I do not have experience with organizing the World Cup rowing, but I did organise other sporting events (Judo with many weight classes and age groups). To be honest, in the short run, it just saves you the medals and potentially a specific group (and thus timeslot) to start. In all honesty, I can inmagine you start all 70+ together, but give them their own ranking. As the venue is overdimensioned for other bigger groups, that might be quite doable. So all these matured men and women could start together, but row their own races and get awarded their own medals. To be honest, having such a joined celebration of the different age groups (and weight classes) with the seniors generally is quite fun.