Slides Category for Crash Bs

[Rockin Roland]

When are we getting a slides category for individuals doing 2K races at the Crash Bs?
We need to scrap the lightweight divisions completely and replace them with a slide categories for the same age groups.

Why? To get rid of all the big lumbering giants with crap technique that still do well, just because of their size.

Last time I did the crash Bs I was the smallest bloke to finish in the top 10 for the 40-50s hwt category. And by the looks of those blokes most of them couldn't row a stroke on the water to save themselves. They were gym junkes, minimum 100kg and 6'6" plus. Made the task for my, although very fit, 6'3" 88kg frame very difficult to beat them.

However, put us all on slides and then the music would start. Most of those lumbering giants would struggle to break 6:30. This would then make it much fairer for all the middle and lightweights with reasonable to good technique.

I achieve identicle sub 6:30 times (I'm 49 this year) on slides compared to my grounded erg times. I've seen 70kg blokes demolish 100kg blokes on slides when these bigger guys always beat them on grounded ergs.

In my neck of the woods all elite time trials are now done on slides so the transition needs to happen to major erg races such as indoor championship races and the Crash Bs.

[jamesg]

Should be a free choice; after all, on the water we can use any blades or boat, so long as it has a minimum weight. Not admitting slides means C2 themselves think a fixed erg is not a good thing.

[Tinus]

One of the only disadvantages for a heavy person (in relation to lightweight people) would be moving/accelerating a higher mass back and forward (especially with bad technique as good technique reduces energy losses of this motion). Those big guys would only need a little practice to move the concept on slides and after that only leave an even larger gap between them and the smaller guys.

[Bob S.]

The logistics of setting up over a hundred competition ergs (not to mention the practice ergs) are difficult enough already, especially when the arena is likely to be booked for events the days before and after the day of the C-Bs. Adding the time that it would take to level and space the slides would make it prohibitive. Having slides as an option makes it even more of a mess. How many of each would have to be set up?

It sounds like a good idea in principal but I doubt very much that it is practical.

Bob S.

[NavigationHazard]

Already being tried. Back in 2005 the EIRC in Copenhagen had team races for pairs, fours and eights on slides. Since then they've mutated into the C2 Euro Slide event, held on slides. See e.g. http://www.ergometertider.dk/info.php?regatta=sl2007

The most recent version was held on 11/30 last year, again team races rather than individual events. Here's the results:

http://www.ergometertider.dk/result.php ... &loeb=alle

And yes, Henrik Stephensen participated....

[Rockin Roland]

One of the only disadvantages for a heavy person (in relation to lightweight people) would be moving/accelerating a higher mass back and forward (especially with bad technique as good technique reduces energy losses of this motion). Those big guys would only need a little practice to move the concept on slides and after that only leave an even larger gap between them and the smaller guys.

No, I couldn't see that happening because bigger guys usually have poorer co-ordination. Their superior upper body strength also couldn't be used because slides place far more emphasis on the legs and the leg drive. Trying to muscle it with your upper body would cause you to crash into front and back stops and not allow you to develope any momentum.

[Rockin Roland]

Already being tried. Back in 2005 the EIRC in Copenhagen had team races for pairs, fours and eights on slides. Since then they've mutated into the C2 Euro Slide event, held on slides. See e.g. http://www.ergometertider.dk/info.php?regatta=sl2007

The most recent version was held on 11/30 last year, again team races rather than individual events. Here's the results:

http://www.ergometertider.dk/result.php ... &loeb=alle

And yes, Henrik Stephensen participated....

That's the problem. The races tend to be all team events. Several years back when I did the Crash Bs they also had team demontration races on slides but nothing for individuals.

Although slides take up more space, you would probably only need about a dozen ergs set up because the initial number of entries would be low, that's until the event caught on. But you need to start somewhere, so why not now?

As racing on slides is far more technical than on a grounded erg it would provide more of a challenge for those that feel they are up to the task. It also provides an alternative to those that have done plenty of erg races in the past and want something different to remain interested in the sport.

[bloomp]

Care to prove how racing on slides is more technical than on a grounded erg? The only difference is that body weight moves far less on a slide than on a regular erg - and you still utilized the exact same stroke for both.

[Nosmo]

How about weighing everyone and applying the weight correction to the scores? As someone who could make light weight carrying my boat if I had too (well atleast without the riggers), I think it would be a lot more fair for me.

It is bad enough competing against people who are 25 lbs more then me, but you are proposing scrapping the lightweight division all together so I can compete against those 100 lbs more? No thanks.

[badocter]

We need to scrap the lightweight divisions completely and replace them with a slide categories for the same age groups.

Why? To get rid of all the big lumbering giants with crap technique that still do well, just because of their size.

Last time I did the crash Bs I was the smallest bloke to finish in the top 10 for the 40-50s hwt category. And by the looks of those blokes most of them couldn't row a stroke on the water to save themselves.

Perhaps in some categories and at some events, however, in the open category it is the OTW guys that clearly dominate. At BIRC 2009, GB rowing took 12 of the top 14 spots. The winner, former rugby man Gareth Archer trains at a rowing club and does OTW work. And while Graham Benton started in the gyms, he has since take up OTW training. Pinsent has the British Record and Waddell the world record, and I think they know which end of an oar to hold too.

The order of the top 14 at BIRC might have come out slightly different on slides, but would have had almost the identical list of names.

bigger guys usually have poorer co-ordination

There are plenty of pro-wrestlers above the 220 pound mark that are agile gymnists. I grant you pro-wrestling is fake, but their agility is undeniable and is the result of discipline in training. The fact that I was terribly uncoordinated at age 19 did not stop me from reaching black belt level in taekwondo at age 23. I doubt there is anyone big or small that did not look clumsy the first time they rowed OTW. Coordination is dependent much more on training than on size... plenty of coxswains couldn't row a stroke to save themselves either.

[Rockin Roland]

"bloomp" If you don't know the degree of technical difficulty slides have over a grounded erg then I suggest you have a row on slides. From your comment I doubt that you've ever used them. I've allowed plenty of experienced rowers have a go on my slides that I keep at our rowing club. The majority of them have problems initially getting into any sort of rythmn and get off fairly quickly making excuses why it feels weird. It is a completely different movement and punishes most bad technique habiits developed from rowing on grounded ergs.

"Nosmo" Weight correction is a great idea. The new Rowperfect erg will allow you to type your weight into the monitor and adjust your score automatically making any need for weight catogories in racing obsolete. It places everyone on the same level playing field. Extra features such as these in the monitor is the reason for the delay in realeasing their new erg. They want to get the monitor right before it goes on sale.

"badocter" Yes you are correct. The open categories are dominated by elite OTW rowers. Many of them are there only because their coaches have told them to be there. But I'm being selfish and refer mainly to the older age groups where the gym junkies dominate. And I don't think you can count those that started in the gym and then tried some OTW rowing, with only little success, entirely as OTW rowers.

I have read many comments on OTW forums about the reasons why the USA has a history of doing poorly in the World Champ. & Olympic rowing. Their selection process places too much emphasis on grounded erg results to get into a crew. The technically gifted guys that aren't as powerful as others on the erg, because of their size, are overlooked. They'd rather stack their boats with gorillas and try and teach them to row than use talented rowers that lack size. Hence the USA has more success in eights where you can get away with a little less technique than in the smaller boat classes. As I mentioned before, other countries are now using slides for crew selection to weed out the gorillas. Likewise it would be nice to see more technical merit in indoor racing.

[NavigationHazard]

IMO the fact that American high school and college programs fetishize sweep rowing in eights has a lot more to do with it than any putative emphasis on grounded erg scores.

NCAA (collegiate) rowing for women has three championship events: I eights; II eights; fours.

The de facto national collegiate men's championships, the IRA championships, has the same for men.

[bloomp]

Roland,

Long have I bit my tongue at your posts filled with things I find stupid or wrong. But now you're really wrong. While I do not own a pair of slides, I used them at camp at UPenn for a week a few summers ago, and have used them at various clubs around New England. I don't care for them because they try to again put lightweights at a disadvantage on the erg. I don't care for them because they take up a ton of space, which I don't have. Maybe you are the one that thinks because you had a hard time learning it (or the people you're with are terrible rowers) that it's difficult for everyone. But especially for someone who has always prioritized OTW rowing, it feels very similar.

[bloomp]

IMO the fact that American high school and college programs fetishize sweep rowing in eights has a lot more to do with it than any putative emphasis on grounded erg scores.

NCAA (collegiate) rowing for women has three championship events: I eights; II eights; fours.

The de facto national collegiate men's championships, the IRA championships, has the same for men.

Indeed there needs to be an inclusion of more sculling events. Look at the Brits, they start their kids rowing at 8 or 9 and they love the sport. Everyone over there knows what it is. Over here you'd be lucky if someone realizes you're even a sport, and that you do more than sit your butt on a seat.

One thing the FISA website emphasizes on rowing is that sculling is a better way to train and learn to row than sweeping. It's a symmetrical workout, so all muscles in the body get the same benefits; unlike in a pair, four or eight where you prefer one side or the other. And the technique used to set a smaller boat is far more difficult to achieve than that of an eight or four.

Too many coaches utilize the "good erg scores, can teach them to row" logic. Find an athlete that can pull a 6:10 2k, that's impressive. But the work required so that athlete could ever successfully race a 1x? Damn tough.

[Rockin Roland]

Roland,

Long have I bit my tongue at your posts filled with things I find stupid or wrong. But now you're really wrong. While I do not own a pair of slides, I used them at camp at UPenn for a week a few summers ago, and have used them at various clubs around New England. I don't care for them because they try to again put lightweights at a disadvantage on the erg. I don't care for them because they take up a ton of space, which I don't have. Maybe you are the one that thinks because you had a hard time learning it (or the people you're with are terrible rowers) that it's difficult for everyone. But especially for someone who has always prioritized OTW rowing, it feels very similar.

You have contradicted yourself in your argument that there is nothing technical about rowing on slides as compared to a grounded erg. Your obviously a lightweight with OTW rowing experience. Although you have limited experience on slides, the times that you have used them you didn't experience any difficulty with them...... Excellent!

You are the perfect example for my argument of using slides in erg races to make it fairer against the heavyweight gym junkies with crap technique.
Blokes like you will have an advantage on slides. You don't notice any difference on slides because you already have the technique from your OTW rowing. Plus your lower weight is an advantage as less mass needs to change direction around the front and back turns without fear of banging into the front and back stoppers. The experienced rowers at our club that had problems getting into a rythmn on slides were big heavy guys. I myself obviously don't have any problems because at 49 years of age I can do sub 6:30 on slides.