Cross Team Challenge - Discussion Thread

[jackarabit]

Jack, I was waiting for this. My explanation was wrong, it should be, MAX 3 heavy man, min 1 lady and 1 light man, so heavy man can be replaced by other rowers. But a serious boat needs 3 heavy man, given the advantage being taller/heavier gives.

I simply kept it uncomplicated.

And a “serious” boat needs a little runt who sits wrong way round with her/his eyes open.


From the Flyers team thread of 15 Feb.:

jackarabit wrote:
THE RULES HERE: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161998&hilit=C2ctc

WHAT FLOATS YOUR BOAT: all five “seats” filled by Maximum of 3 hwts. Minimum of 1 lwt. Minimum of 1 female.

HOW GREAT AM I: simple top down individual ranking based on either elapsed time to complete specified distance or meters rowed in specified time.

TEAM POSITION: end of challenge month all floated boats ranked by average time or average distance rowed by team members. Highest ranked boat awarded points = total no. of floated boats; lowest ranked 1 point. Boats w/ seats unfilled are SOL and do not score points. Team w/ most boats afloat is challenge winner.

HOW REGISTER: Cut and try or ask challenge admin for assistance in CTC thread in Competition subforum.

Shouldn’t gloat I know but I feel like a blind pig with his own little acorn!

[Paul N]

Thanks for pointing out the error Marius. It's good to know that someone is checking. The mistake arose because I used the November table, rather than the December version, as a basis for the current one. As you rightly point out, Sub7 are now tied with FM for 1st place in this year's competition.

Apologies to all. I'm getting old ...



Regards,
Joe

Is there a page or post somewhere that explains how the league table is calculated please?

[jackarabit]

Go here http://c2ctc.com/faq.php for the official gospel of who may be permitted to occupy a virtual boat in the CTC. Everything should be made as simple and uncomplicated as is possible.

[Paul N]

Go here http://c2ctc.com/faq.php for the official gospel of who may be permitted to occupy a virtual boat in the CTC.

Jack, I understand that bit. What I was hoping for is some documentation or explanation as to where the points in the league tables posted in this thread come from.

For example, the latest table shows, for November, 70 points for Forum Flyers, 75 (??) points for DLC GP, and 110 (??) points for Sub7. How all of that follows from this

http://www.c2ctc.com/index.php?c_id=154

is beyond me at the moment.

Everything should be made as simple and uncomplicated as is possible.

Well...

[jackarabit]

Go here http://c2ctc.com/faq.php for the official gospel of who may be permitted to occupy a virtual boat in the CTC.

Jack, I understand that bit. What I was hoping for is some documentation or explanation as to where the points in the league tables posted in this thread come from.

For example, the latest table shows, for November, 70 points for Forum Flyers, 75 (??) points for DLC GP, and 110 (??) points for Sub7. How all of that follows from this

http://www.c2ctc.com/index.php?c_id=154

is beyond me at the moment.

Everything should be made as simple and uncomplicated as is possible.

Well...

How bout I cop to MY mistake before I get my muzzle stuck in like a puppy standing over a pile of warm steaming—to wit—the assertion that the winning team is the aggregation with the greatest number of boats filled.

Joe Keating is responsible for tabulating the results and awarding the privilege of choosing future challenges. Perhaps he can provide insight into the granular detail of the scoring system.

[Slothful1]

Thanks for pointing out the error Marius. It's good to know that someone is checking. The mistake arose because I used the November table, rather than the December version, as a basis for the current one. As you rightly point out, Sub7 are now tied with FM for 1st place in this year's competition.

Apologies to all. I'm getting old ...



Regards,
Joe

Is there a page or post somewhere that explains how the league table is calculated please?

Hi Paul

It's the points scored on the CTC table by the highest-placed team boat that are counted towards the league table for that specific team. So Forum Flyers' first boat came in quite far off the pace and only picked up 70 points, compared with Sub7's 111 points in first place that month. Each boat's points are just the reverse ranking of the boat (i.e. Sub7 was 1st of 111 fully-filled boats in November so gets 111 points). In less-popular months the winning team might then pick up less points, but it's all relative to how the other teams perform, so might not affect their league position.

EDIT - I think your confusion might not be helped by some of the November rankings changing after the end of the month. This is probably caused by someone changing teams after the month (which then retrospectively changes all the C2CTC's past tables). The one that matters is the one in play at the end of the challenge, which looks like what Joe correctly captured (I took a PDF print at the end of November and it shows 110 points for Sub7).

Dave

[jackarabit]

Slothful 1 writes:

EDIT - I think your confusion might not be helped by some of the November rankings changing after the end of the month. This is probably caused by someone changing teams after the month (which then retrospectively changes all the C2CTC's past tables). The one that matters is the one in play at the end of the challenge, which looks like what Joe correctly captured (I took a PDF print at the end of November and it shows 110 points for Sub7).

Old birder say hard to generate ordinals when the cardinals are flitting from feeder to branch!

Dave, isn’t there also something about the hoi poloi—er ah—largest flotilla for so many months or sundays or some such earning the right for the big dogs on the team to pick a future challenge? Perhaps there are official-appearing glyphs carved on a broken cenotaph in the highly-respected but now defunct UK forum which describe this? One big feudal shoutout for our athletic Lords and Masters!

[Paul N]

Thanks Dave, for confirming what I suspected, and for explaining the discrepancies.

Dave, isn’t there also something about the hoi poloi—er ah—largest flotilla for so many months or sundays or some such earning the right for the big dogs on the team to pick a future challenge? Perhaps there are official-appearing glyphs carved on a broken cenotaph in the highly-respected but now defunct UK forum which describe this? One big feudal shoutout for our athletic Lords and Masters!

I think that's described here Jack:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161998&p=425626#p425626

The system is that teams become eligible for a challenge after boats are filled for three consecutive months. Teams have to claim the challenge; it's not awarded automatically. After the opening challenge, clubs go on the list that determines further priorities. The current formula is to double the active months since the previous challenge and add this to the number of boats launched in the month just ended. This gives a good balance between giving each team an opportunity and rewarding particiption in the CTC.

Regards,
Joe

Example table here (posted 1 Dec, based on the situation after completion of the Nov challenge):



And here are some further tables that add to our interest:

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=161998&p=404791#p404791

[Paul N]

So, if I've understood correctly, what teams have to try to do is:

1) get their boat no. I as high as possible in the ranking, and
2) get their other floating boats (II, III, IV etc) above lower teams' boats no. I, to increase the points differentials to those lower teams. If not, then those remaining floating boats aren't really bringing much to the party.

[jackarabit]

So, if I've understood correctly, what teams have to try to do is:

1) get their boat no. I as high as possible in the ranking, and
2) get their other floating boats (II, III, IV etc) above lower teams' boats no. I, to increase the points differentials to those lower teams. If not, then those remaining floating boats aren't really bringing much to the party.

With regard to #2, ALL floated boats contribute to the point spread from team with highest ordinal placement to the team with lowest.

I humbly submit that teams which float large numbers of boats month after month are awarded the privilege of naming the monthly challenge with greater frequency than are teams which float few boats, team ordinal and points scored notwithstanding. Good examples of this are French Indoor and sub7.

The strategic question is whether dealer’s choice creates significant difficulties for small teams of elite rowers (MAD) and the perennial answer is No. Pack fodder is given a marginal role and function which encourages team solidarity but not leverage in the game. Bit like the game of Whack-bat in Wes Anderson’s The Fantastic Mr. Fox. Most are assigned to run up and down the sidelines like the twig-running beavers while the real “players” have their innings. Cherry pick one boatload on absolute performance and you’re golden. The remainder is eyewash for the rest of us. But “in the end, the luv u take is = 2 the luv u make,” however inept the effort.

[Slothful1]

I think the secret of the success of the CTC (over 12 unbroken years and counting) is that there is something for everyone. For some it's just the interesting variety of challenges that are thrown up, for others the encouragement of contributing towards the team in some way (either just to get a boat floated, or to improve a boat's score). The league tables are an extension that might appeal to some, but it won't necessarily drive the bulk of the participation.

And the key thing for me is the participation. Any time someone new comes along to the forum, one of the first places they get pointed to is the CTC site. There are only a handful of legends that have been there since the beginning, so most of the people currently participating have probably only been there for a couple of years or less. It needs people to be successful, and so far it seems to be working well.

Well done Mike for increasing our chances of floating another boat. I left my begging last month a bit late, and couldn't persuade my wife to chuck in a score, but hoping this month's challenge might be a bit easier to sell.

Cheers
Dave

[bojam]

I would merge the smaller teams who don't manage to fill a single boat together so as to form a merged team that can then still count towards the normal team's goal.

[burritomike]

I want to attempt this month's challenge as soon as I get home this evening but I don't know how to program the workout! I see "Intervals: Distance" on the PM5 but it appears you only program a single distance with a single rest and those simply repeat during the workout. How does one program in a workout like the February challenge with different distances? And is there a way to tell the PM5 that the end of the second 500m is the end of the program?

Thanks all, I don't have time to fidget with the PM5 to figure it out tonight (two toddlers at home and my wife works nights, leaves me little time to play!) so I thought I'd ask from folks who have already done this sort of thing.

-bm

[hjs]

I want to attempt this month's challenge as soon as I get home this evening but I don't know how to program the workout! I see "Intervals: Distance" on the PM5 but it appears you only program a single distance with a single rest and those simply repeat during the workout. How does one program in a workout like the February challenge with different distances? And is there a way to tell the PM5 that the end of the second 500m is the end of the program?

Thanks all, I don't have time to fidget with the PM5 to figure it out tonight (two toddlers at home and my wife works nights, leaves me little time to play!) so I thought I'd ask from folks who have already done this sort of thing.

-bm

Var. intervals is the option to use. You can set every time, distance, rest you want.

But every one has to be set by hand. In this case 3 intervals and 2 rest intervals.

[burritomike]

I want to attempt this month's challenge as soon as I get home this evening but I don't know how to program the workout! I see "Intervals: Distance" on the PM5 but it appears you only program a single distance with a single rest and those simply repeat during the workout. How does one program in a workout like the February challenge with different distances? And is there a way to tell the PM5 that the end of the second 500m is the end of the program?

Thanks all, I don't have time to fidget with the PM5 to figure it out tonight (two toddlers at home and my wife works nights, leaves me little time to play!) so I thought I'd ask from folks who have already done this sort of thing.

-bm

Var. intervals is the option to use. You can set every time, distance, rest you want.

But every one has to be set by hand. In this case 3 intervals and 2 rest intervals.

Wow. Not sure how I missed that. Thanks!