World Rowing Indoor Championships -2023, age groups

[GlennUk]

I take your point, but disagree with the conclusion.

If they are worried about declaring me a world champ if thim the only one in the class and i row a 35min 2K when i get to 75, they simply need to include a rule set which prevents that, then those that are serious would not be deterred and owld be treated fairly.

For example, the only winners eligible for the title 'world champion' in any ages class must achieve a performance better than 95th percentile of the relevant age class based on C2 data, they could do the same for all classes.

[JaapvanE]

You can see why they might decide not to hold separate class for each 5 year age group 75 and above. They risk getting only one participant in an age group who doesn't know how to row being named "best in the world" while rowing a 30 minute 2K, ugly form, laughing all the way and later posting a video making fun of indoor rowing that gets 2M clicks on youtube.

AFAIK, people should qualify to be allowed to row, so the "doesn't know how to row" probably isn't a factor here. But I might be proven wrong here.

Then again, if 2M people see a 90 year old having the time of his life on a RowErg, that might not be such a bad thing from a PR perspective. Hopefully next year there will be three 90+ contestants, battling the 2K in 10+ times. Refering to my earlier post: if it grows the base of the pyramid, you performed your duty as sports association.

As pointed out above, the only difference between 2022 and 2023 will be handing out 3 ribbons vs 2022 where they handed out 12. The ribbons don't cost that much, so don't think cost is an issue. Given the lifetime achievement videos C2 posts I do think C2 respects older rowers. So I'm thinking this decision is focused on making sure all the "best in the world" victories come from a big enough pool of rowers to merit the title as a way of protecting the athletes who put in 1000s of hours prepping for this race.

When it comes to indoor rowing, I don't think that there are professional athletes, as most competitive professional rowers are focussed on OTW, as there are true competitions and Olympics to be won. Given that focus, I even think that great OTW rowers might even ignore these championships as it conflicts with the OTW season. And seeing some 80+ rowers high up in the rankings in terms of meters, they might be making more hours than both of us combined. So dismissing that effort might not do it justice.

Aside that, as soon as you start talking age groups or weight categories, you risk that the pool is so small that it might be an easy win. These categories are there to make sure the game is fair to everyone. Just as you wouldn't put a flyweight judoka against Teddy Riner, you can't line up a 90 year old against a 70 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I like a competitive field. But in my former carreers as athlete and sports board member I often enough saw the "wrong person/team" win due to competitors having bad luck or bad track conditions, dispite a huge field. And as erging isn't an Olympic sport, but it is a great way to keep older people fit, the championships should reflect the population and respect their limitations. Having faith in growing a base in specific demographic is what a world championship is also about (this is what brought the world cup soccer to the US, despite having no male soccer competition to speak of).

[nick rockliff]

You can see why they might decide not to hold separate class for each 5 year age group 75 and above. They risk getting only one participant in an age group who doesn't know how to row being named "best in the world" while rowing a 30 minute 2K, ugly form, laughing all the way and later posting a video making fun of indoor rowing that gets 2M clicks on youtube.

AFAIK, people should qualify to be allowed to row, so the "doesn't know how to row" probably isn't a factor here. But I might be proven wrong here.

Then again, if 2M people see a 90 year old having the time of his life on a RowErg, that might not be such a bad thing from a PR perspective. Hopefully next year there will be three 90+ contestants, battling the 2K in 10+ times. Refering to my earlier post: if it grows the base of the pyramid, you performed your duty as sports association.

As pointed out above, the only difference between 2022 and 2023 will be handing out 3 ribbons vs 2022 where they handed out 12. The ribbons don't cost that much, so don't think cost is an issue. Given the lifetime achievement videos C2 posts I do think C2 respects older rowers. So I'm thinking this decision is focused on making sure all the "best in the world" victories come from a big enough pool of rowers to merit the title as a way of protecting the athletes who put in 1000s of hours prepping for this race.

When it comes to indoor rowing, I don't think that there are professional athletes, as most competitive professional rowers are focussed on OTW, as there are true competitions and Olympics to be won. Given that focus, I even think that great OTW rowers might even ignore these championships as it conflicts with the OTW season. And seeing some 80+ rowers high up in the rankings in terms of meters, they might be making more hours than both of us combined. So dismissing that effort might not do it justice.

Aside that, as soon as you start talking age groups or weight categories, you risk that the pool is so small that it might be an easy win. These categories are there to make sure the game is fair to everyone. Just as you wouldn't put a flyweight judoka against Teddy Riner, you can't line up a 90 year old against a 70 year old.

Don't get me wrong, I like a competitive field. But in my former carreers as athlete and sports board member I often enough saw the "wrong person/team" win due to competitors having bad luck or bad track conditions, dispite a huge field. And as erging isn't an Olympic sport, but it is a great way to keep older people fit, the championships should reflect the population and respect their limitations. Having faith in growing a base in specific demographic is what a world championship is also about (this is what brought the world cup soccer to the US, despite having no male soccer competition to speak of).

There used to be big races back in the day. From BIRC 2003

Race 15, 13:55
Hwt men Open (c, main race)
They're warming up the crowd for the main event of the day, with the front row stuffed full of the GB team. Showing clips of the World Championships 4- and 8+. Strangely enough they've not promised to show the 2- event. Matthew Pinsent is warming up, with James Cracknell just behind him who's just sat down and sorting his kit out.

Everyone is now ready, waiting for the final countdown. Steve Redgrave, asked for a prediction, didn't give too much away. They're away, with James and Matthew off stroke for stroke. James stopped - complaining about something - and they've made everyone stop. They called a stop for row B, since someone false started, and James didn't hear. Everyone is now waiting around, trying to refocus for the race ahead. A few people get up and walk around. Now after a delay, they call everyone to the start again.

The crowd goes quiet before the race, and they're off - a clean start, away we go. 1.23 from James and Matthew as they go through the first few hundred meters. Pinsent has a slight lead over James, with Josh West and Steve Williams vying with Matthew Wells for the bronze medal place. Almost 500m gone, with Pinsent in front, from Cracknell, from Williams. 1.27s now, for the middle thousand. Pinsent still slightly pulling away from Cracknell - a second lower on the split. Kieran West moved up to contest third place, just ahead of Williams. Well it's Pinsent ahead of Cracknell in the lead, almost a length clear now. 850m left, with still 1.27 from Pinsent: Cracknell and West on 1.28. Pinsent and Cracknell rowing stroke for stroke now, with Pinsent just getting a little more out of each stroke. Now 550m left, with West sitting well in third place. All the top three on 1.27s, with James trying to claw back a few meters, now undersplitting Matthew. James now at 1.26s, 2 second under Matthew, 150m left. Can James make it up for the finish?, but now Pinsent goes, 1.25, 1.24, holding on to the lead, and finishes in 5.47.9, Cracknell in 5.49.3, West in 5.51.8.

All now fallen off the ergs on to the floor, and the crowd give just applause for their efforts. The top 16 people are all under 6 minutes, good news for the GB team in this Olympic year. After beating his break even point of 5.48, Matthew Pinsent is saying that he would have preferred to break 47 or 46 - along with most people here I think...

MH: Pinsent 5.47.9, Cracknell 5.49.3, West 5.51.8

[GlennUk]

From WIR 2023

For those racing on-site in Mississauga in an age category race, qualification will not be required. The number of in-person competitors will only be restricted by the capacity of the venue.

There will be an option to participate virtually for those wishing to do so. Virtual places will be limited, so competitors will need to qualify for these virtual places in advance. The qualification details will be published by World Rowing in September 2022, however virtual participants can expect a similar qualification process to that for the 2022 edition of the event.

[MudSweatAndYears]

There is one alternative approach that has not entered this discussion so far... let me bring it up here.

I think we all agree that whatever the specific WRICH age grouping, the following should hold: if at WRICH a 90+ year old rows a world record in his/her age category, that person deserves 1st place recognition. Having a merged 70+ group competing for a single top spot clearly violates this principle.

A way out would be to reinstating a 90+ age group. But this causes an undesired fragmentation into many tiny age groups, and there is an alternative approach rthat bgives the 90+ yer old a chance to win whilst avoiding highly fragmented age groups:

The lumped 70+ age group could have two rankings, each with a first place spot. One ranking would be the regular ranking. No matter how well a 90+ year old participant would perform, the top spot in this ranking would probably go to a rower not much older than 70. However, the second ranking would take care of this. This ranking would be based on an alternative performance metric such as the P/AR score: https://erg-all-rounders.blogspot.com/2 ... field.html. If a 90+ year old rows a world record, the top spot in this ranking would more than likely go to this participant.

[Two Pudding Kid]

I am glad that Charles got a mention in this thread - he went to countless indoor rowing competitions and always got there and back by train/coach the same day, (I remember well the annual 04:15 coach to Manchester trip)! For him it wasnt about the winning, but taking part and the camaraderie that goes with the sport. I think we need to take into account that there will be ergers without the technology or home rowing machine who would only take part in a live event, and although saving the travelling and accommodation would be a bonus to some it just doesnt feel the same virtually.

I am in a category that makes it easier than most others to medal, not that I always do - ladies 55-59 LWT. I sometimes go heavyweight if the video weighin is likely to prove a nightmare. Jumping on the scales at a live race is one thing, trying to prove a legal weigh in at home can screw my chances of getting to a personal trainers house who has an erg in the garage anything like an hour before the off.

I have still got 13 years to go before I need to concern myself with 70+ but if the rationale is that there is only 1 competitor in many of the age groups then I would rather see the LWT dropped and go to 10 year categories all the way through. I dont know how many people would advertise themselves as a World Champion of a category of 1, but does that matter? I can probably call myself the German marathon 40-59 women champion of 2012 but I would only want to shout it from the rooftops if I was the fastest woman of the day.

I donts support the use of any handicapping system to sort out the results. For me we should all be able to choose 2000m, (if we wish), and go the full distance at the same time as our peers. Subjecting the results to a handicapping system, however good, makes it a calculated position rather than a real one that is announced well after the race has ended.

I think the entry fee for indoor rowing competitions is likely to deter anyone who is likely to use a virtual event as a means of product placement, internet followers etc although if it was deemed necessary I wouldnt say no to a maximum ergo time of say 15 minutes for 2k.

I am not considering taking part in Wrich 2023 - happy to do 2022 which I had set my heart on going to Hamburg live, (in the end personal circumstances would have prevented that). Took part in the virtual race but far too much trouble to have to qualify and race, plus the internet test on a weekday night. I have had the experience but wouldnt look to do that again in a hurry.

Keeping my fingers crossed that I get to FitFest 2022 at Loughborough Uni on 10 September for a 2k race. Hoping there are more live opportunities this season in the UK.

[Cyclingman1]

Hopefully I'm not too off topic here. But I miss the abundance of indoor C2 racing regattas. What few there are are not near my home in Atlanta, GA. At age 76 I have been well below the WR for 2K, 75+ for quite a while. And have done it several times. But I cannot get the recognition from merely a verified row. So that sucks.

[Tsnor]

Hopefully I'm not too off topic here. But I miss the abundance of indoor C2 racing regattas. What few there are are not near my home in Atlanta, GA. At age 76 I have been well below the WR for 2K, 75+ for quite a while. And have done it several times. But I cannot get the recognition from merely a verified row. So that sucks.

Contact Concept2. They will help. If they don't please post (but I will be very surprised). Especially with your proven 2K history.

"Online race records for 2000m do not count unless they are approved beforehand by Concept2. Please check with Concept2 if in doubt at virtualracing@concept2.com."

[Dangerscouse]

Hopefully I'm not too off topic here. But I miss the abundance of indoor C2 racing regattas. What few there are are not near my home in Atlanta, GA. At age 76 I have been well below the WR for 2K, 75+ for quite a while. And have done it several times. But I cannot get the recognition from merely a verified row. So that sucks.

That's a huge understatement. You definitely deserve the recognition.

[MudSweatAndYears]

Hopefully I'm not too off topic here. But I miss the abundance of indoor C2 racing regattas. What few there are are not near my home in Atlanta, GA. At age 76 I have been well below the WR for 2K, 75+ for quite a while. And have done it several times. But I cannot get the recognition from merely a verified row. So that sucks.

You cannot get the recognition from merey a verified row, but you can get the recognition from virtual participation to an official race. You need to satisfy a few requirements (verification in terms of witnesses, video recording, etc.) though. The folks at C2 can specify this for you.

[Cyclingman1]

You cannot get the recognition from merey a verified row, but you can get the recognition from virtual participation to an official race. You need to satisfy a few requirements (verification in terms of witnesses, video recording, etc.) though. The folks at C2 can specify this for you.

I knew all of that. BTW, absolutely no response from virtualracing@C2.com. Nothing has changed. The bottom line is that with a lot of hoop jumping C2 will recognize one's efforts. Not the first time I ran into this. In 2012 at age 66, I rowed a second under the current 65+ WR and unofficially had the best time for nearly a yr. Same story. Of course, back then there were venues, but I got seriously hurt before the GA Tech sprints in Feb, 2013. No big deal, I'll continue along my merry way and be content with being the best 75+ rower regardless of C2 sanctioning. I might add that TJO from Hawaii was below WRs several times and never bothered with coming to a venue. He still goes down as probably the best older rower ever.

[Tsnor]

absolutely no response from virtualracing@C2.com

resend to info@concept2.com ask for an ack.

[Cyclingman1]

resend to info@concept2.com ask for an ack.

Done. The answer is that they will be happy to accept all non-2K times for consideration for WRs. Pretty funny. WRs are in 10 yr increments. I don't think there is a single WR where someone is halfway through a decade.

[Tsnor]

resend to info@concept2.com ask for an ack.

Done. The answer is that they will be happy to accept all non-2K times for consideration for WRs. Pretty funny. WRs are in 10 yr increments. I don't think there is a single WR where someone is halfway through a decade.

And they wouldn't offer advice / guidance / help on how you could document your world record attempt ? Sad. You are correct, covid is the base problem. My club has not run it's annual indoor sprints since covid, and shows no signs of ever holding them again. Makes for far fewer opportunity to document 2K results.

[Cyclingman1]

I moved my appeal up to Peter Dreissigacker, co-owner of Concept 2 with brother Dick. Being an ex Olympic rower and in his 70s, he knows how hard it is to get close to 7 mins when in middle 70s. He said he would discuss my situation with his team. I doubt if he will want to make an exception to their standards. No big deal. Lot of work to do on my rowing over next few months.