Cross Team Challenge - Discussion Thread

[nick rockliff]

As a 73 kg female, I don't want to compete against lightweight women in competition, but have wondered the same thing about the CTC lightweight slot on the boat - if a 73 kg male can take that slot, why can't I? How big is the programming lift?

The whole thing was put together by a programmer who used to also be a rower. He did it one weekend as a bit of fun back in around 2005. Dougie looks after it now but I think making changes is very difficult.

Dougie will probably explain more.

It was just a bit of fun back then which has grown in popularity since.

[Citroen]

How big is the programming lift?

You have to update the registration for every lightweight female.

[UweBecker]

You have to update the registration for every lightweight female.

I thought any rower wishing to change from F HWT to F LWT could do so themselves via the "Add or Update a Person" page. Or does the admin have to take over the entries manually?

[Citroen]

Trying to get the population of rowers to do anything to their registration is extremely hard work and it won't cover everyone. The "true" lightweight women will have set themselves up when they first registered.

[btlifter]

Trying to get the population of rowers to do anything to their registration is extremely hard work and it won't cover everyone. The "true" lightweight women will have set themselves up when they first registered.

I'm sure you're correct, and that many won't bother.

For those who would like to both increase participation and ensure that women don't have to weigh significantly less than their male counterparts, the ability to update their profile (or create a new one) would likely be welcome.

Do you agree that a vote is the most appropriate avenue to address this?

[jackarabit]

Better models were available for a gender-inclusive rowing comp way back when DC wrote the code so why 5 in a boatload? Coxed 4? Don’t think so. How bout 8 seats? 2 allotted to each of the gender+weight classes. That would have provided parity of numerical opportunity.

The problem with gender and weight bias in seating per boat is obvious. That’s the Old Boy/wide boy game. The ordinal ranking of accumulated times or yardage on the left of page tells who came when. Race of Truth innit.

[Citroen]

How bout 8 seats? 2 allotted to each of the gender+weight classes. That would have provided parity of numerical opportunity.

That's not going to happen, it would need a code change.

[jackarabit]

How bout 8 seats? 2 allotted to each of the gender+weight classes. That would have provided parity of numerical opportunity.

That's not going to happen, it would need a code change.

Missed the past unreal conditional, did you? Have you noticed that invocation of the future real UNconditional does not quell the demand for change?

[iain]

Any vote should be restricted to those willing and able to do any necessary software change!

One compromise is that in the spirit of diversity, we could accept that the "Male" gender is available as an open category and therefore any woman between 61.5kg and 75kg would have the right to register as a Lwt male. Clubs whose CTC boats are restricted by lightweights but not woman could then encourage people in this category to reregister. As I see this there would not be a software upgrade required and the onus would be on the rowers. Personally I don't have a problem with some clubs having sub-optimum results if the rowers fail to make use of the opportunity.

That said, I am happy for it to continue as is!

- IAin

[Elizabeth]

Any vote should be restricted to those willing and able to do any necessary software change!

One compromise is that in the spirit of diversity, we could accept that the "Male" gender is available as an open category and therefore any woman between 61.5kg and 75kg would have the right to register as a Lwt male. Clubs whose CTC boats are restricted by lightweights but not woman could then encourage people in this category to reregister. As I see this there would not be a software upgrade required and the onus would be on the rowers. Personally I don't have a problem with some clubs having sub-optimum results if the rowers fail to make use of the opportunity.

That said, I am happy for it to continue as is!

- IAin

This was one of my thoughts, but I don't think it would work. More folks have done last month's challenge than this month's, so I'm going to use that as an example. I got 2898m. Let's say that we don't yet have a lightweight on the boat, but another female on my team did it in 2815m. I put my result in as a lightweight male, she puts hers in as a heavyweight female. Then a lightweight male comes and does 3063. At that point I could conceivably go and enter my time as a heavyweight female under a separate profile, but it gets to be really burdensome to try to track. And I don't want to put in my time initially as both heavyweight female and lightweight male because I could take up two seats on the boat as a single person. This could float a boat that shouldn't actually float.

This could be a rules change that we vote on - CTC lightweight cutoff is 75kg for both sexes. I think the software is already built to handle this dynamic if I enter my meters as a lightweight female, right?

[jackarabit]

If ALL female participants register as mhwt and claim “Boy named Sue” status, no boats will float due to the empty F seat in each and every boat. The big dogs can still compete for the the 80% of the seat total that is considered their birthright and the gals for the 60% of the seats that are by tradition, custom, and force majeure above the (rather dingy) glass ceiling. The ordinals remain fair and just to all irrespective of gender. You pull the weight you pull and the antique game is played out.

Or, in the spirit of OMG NO!, if ALL male participants register as flwt and claim “Girl named Mack” status, a very few boats will float, with incredible scores in seat 4. And the ordinals will still tell the story, cats and kittens.

[joe80]

Congratulations to Germania for their consecutive first place in the February challenge. Te Waka closed the gap on the MAD Team by three points. Too little, too late? We'll see.

The Diamonds again produced a huge flotilla; this time 54 boats. Well done!

Both the Age Against The Machine and the FIN Keu teams, as new entrants with three consecutive months, have qualified for a challenge. To make this happen, a representative must first contact me.

Future Challengers:
April - Sub7
May - Red Line Rowers
June - Team Oarsome





Regards,
Joe

[UweBecker]

...
This could be a rules change that we vote on - CTC lightweight cutoff is 75kg for both sexes. I think the software is already built to handle this dynamic if I enter my meters as a lightweight female, right?

Exactly, this change would be maximally simple and effective.
I'm all for it!

[jackarabit]

In the spirit of inclusion I’ll vote for anything that affords increased incentive to the oppressed misses.

[Elizabeth]

And, as a result of voting, have slides been banned?

Yes, the vote was against the use of slides.

My personal view, in the interests of inclusivity, is that there should be exemptions for medical or other physical problems. Nobody who is going to feature in the top twenty, let's say, individuals on the leaderboard or occupy a top boat should use slides. I would hate to think that any regular CTC competitors in more lowly positions would feel excluded by this new rule.

Regards,
Joe

Can someone please update the Entry Guidelines, http://c2ctc.com/entries.php, which states expressly that slides are allowed?

Also, will there be a vote on allowing women to take the lightweight spot on the boat with the same 75kg cut-off that applies to men for this spot?