Ivy/University rowing?

[jamesg]

If you want to get to 6:45 2k, you have to train for that. Some, or better a lot of work at say rate 20, pace 2:00 (200 W) as LSS is needed, under HR control.

The Wolverine L4 tables at the end of this file are very useful for this type of discipline: http://www.concept2.com/files/pdf/us/tr ... nePlan.pdf

This is how pacing for a 2k is done: http://therowingcompany.com/birc/training_race_strategy

Going fast off the start to stay ahead you'll lose. If you do start fast, cool it before the first 500 post. Racing usually involves a sprint in the last 500, so we have to get to 1500 while still aerobic, not stop even before that. This means that the faster we want to go, the more the endurance work we need to do.

As you're fairly small for an oarsman, you'll have to base your rowing on discipline, technique, precision, control and tactics. This could earn you a seat in the stern. If you prefer flying and dying on the other hand, you'll have to stay ashore or do it on your own in a 1x.

[c2jonw]

Here are a few pointers from our website: http://www.concept2.com/indoor-rowers/t ... ompetition
And I agree with what's been said about rowing smart and rowing your race. It takes a lot of courage and knowledge of your capability to start a 2k at what feels like a slow pace, but from the sheer physics viewpoint you will get the best performance out of what you have to offer by rowing at even pace. C2JonW

[Hrath]

Thanks for all the help guys! At this point I am sure hoping that my combination of rowing+academics can get me into an ivy as neither is exceptionally strong.

Will look to continue to train over the summer; unfortunately I was unable to find a rowing program that I had time for in boston (as that's where my summer school will be) and will consequently have to work out on my own.

Do 6-10k runs once every two days (my risk of heel injury after more than 2 days running in a row is very high), + 2-3 hours of gym time every day (minus days that I feel might cause injury), along with 3-4 erg workout a week, and any other free time spent on the water in a single sound for a summer-long training program?

Would appreciate if anyone can send me a program they may have gotten from a national developmental program or something of that caliber!

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Do 6-10k runs once every two days (my risk of heel injury after more than 2 days running in a row is very high), + 2-3 hours of gym time every day (minus days that I feel might cause injury), along with 3-4 erg workout a week, and any other free time spent on the water in a single sound for a summer-long training program?

To be blunt: no.

What do you plan to do for 2-3 hours a day in the gym? If your goal is to get better/faster at rowing, you don't need to be in the gym for 2-3 hours, and definitely not everyday. Running is good for cross-training but if it's coming at the expense of missed erg/OTW sessions then it isn't going to be very helpful. Fitness is extremely sport specific, especially as you get faster and faster.

I wouldn't recommend lifting more than two times a week, and the lifts shouldn't take much more than an hour to an hour and a half. I would erg/row at least 5 times a week, more if possible. You can throw in running once or twice a week, sure, but don't let it substitute erg/rowing. You need to put in a lot of meters in, that's how you get faster. Read up/view interviews with elite rowers and you'll hear over and over again - volume is key.

You're not going to be racing 2k anytime soon, nor do you want to be peaking for 2k over the summer. What you want to do in the summer is build that aerobic base.

[Bob S.]

Thanks for all the help guys! At this point I am sure hoping that my combination of rowing+academics can get me into an ivy as neither is exceptionally strong.

Will look to continue to train over the summer; unfortunately I was unable to find a rowing program that I had time for in boston (as that's where my summer school will be) and will consequently have to work out on my own.

Do 6-10k runs once every two days (my risk of heel injury after more than 2 days running in a row is very high), + 2-3 hours of gym time every day (minus days that I feel might cause injury), along with 3-4 erg workout a week, and any other free time spent on the water in a single sound for a summer-long training program?

Would appreciate if anyone can send me a program they may have gotten from a national developmental program or something of that caliber!

Armando has already said what was necessary, but I have to add my own reaction to your post. I read it late last night and didn't have time to answer it then. That one clause outlined above really blew my mind. You make the time on the water sound like an afterthought. It should be the core of your training. If you are training to row, not enter a body-builing competition, you need to put in your time rowing - on the water where it counts. Mix it up some. Distance pieces for building endurance are usually the basis. For speed, you can do practice starts and finish sprints, through those are best left to shortly before the race season has begun. For technique, work on pick drills and pause drills, and rowing at varying stroke rate. Row with squared blades. Get in practice when the water is rough. It can often be rough in a race and you have to have had practice in handling it. You are fortunate the you have the opportunity to train in a single. That is the best training of all. A smart coach is going to look at how fast you can make a boat move. Erg scores and muscular development (primarily quads and lats) have some influence, but don't count for much if you can't put that speed in a boat.

Bob S.

[Hrath]

@ArmandoChavezUNC
As much as I would like to maximize erg time during the summer, my coach and I have conversed extensively on this topic and she has determined that the best thing for me to do would be to continue cardio workouts (my cardio base is about average right now), along with core workouts and a bit of erging. I am trying to get in volume weightlifting to hopefully develop my leg (and maybe back+arm muscles) in order to better be able to pull in my boats. Along with all of this I will try and do yoga at the local gym once or twice a week so that I can become more flexible (hip flexers currently a big issue for me).


@Bob S.
I am well aware that rowing should compromise the majority of my training, however as I will be at the harvard summer program I have extremely limited use of their boats/facilities (closed on weekends, and 2 days of the week it is mostly open during my class). In addition I would consider myself more of a sweep rower than a sculler; although I know that I should try and get out in a single as much as possible I also profoundly dislike the singles that they make available (a fleet of approximately 10 extremely old boats with pontoons that are made for novice learn-to-row)

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

@ArmandoChavezUNC
As much as I would like to maximize erg time during the summer, my coach and I have conversed extensively on this topic and she has determined that the best thing for me to do would be to continue cardio workouts (my cardio base is about average right now), along with core workouts and a bit of erging. I am trying to get in volume weightlifting to hopefully develop my leg (and maybe back+arm muscles) in order to better be able to pull in my boats. Along with all of this I will try and do yoga at the local gym once or twice a week so that I can become more flexible (hip flexers currently a big issue for me)

I'm not sure we're understanding each other.

You hope to be able to row collegiate at an Ivy League school (read: one of the top rowing programs in the country). You want to lower your 2k time. You come to an online forum to ask for help on how to achieve this goal - but all I get is a huge sense of resistance from you on everything that is suggested. You have people on these forums helping you who have decades of experience. People with Crash-b hammers, people who rowed collegiately, people with elite rowing experience. And yet what I get form your responses to our advice is basically - I was already planning to do this, this person told me do that, I can't do this because of that. Why are you asking for help? It doesn't seem like you are coming to the forums with an open mind.

Again - the people trying to help you have vast amounts of experience. They know what they are talking about. I'm not sure that's resonating with you.

Ultimately it's up to you what plan you choose to follow and who you choose to take advice from. I strongly encourage you to listen to what people (including me) are suggesting on these forums.

If you want to get better at rowing and lower your 2k time - spend time on the erg and on the water. Erg and row. Throw a couple of lifts in there. You don't need to lift 3 hours every day. You don't need to run. You need to erg. You need to row.

I don't want to sound harsh but really I don't understand why you're coming to ask then discount every suggestion we give you.

[Hrath]

@ArmandChavezUNC

Yeah I read my replies and it definitely seems that way. I don't mean to do it, however I have a very constrained amount of time that I can do things in and my schedule is already looking weird.
I think the biggest problem for me this summer are the availability of boats (again, I can get out max 3 times a week if I'm lucky enough to get a boat), and my gym doesn't allow early mornings (the gym being where I would erg).

Once again, I do appreciate the help you guys are giving me! Sorry if it seems that I am being extremely negative and adamant with keeping with my plan, but I am just trying to satisfy everyone and clearly that is not working. I think most likely I will follow your advice and my coach will just kind of have to deal with it :/

[Edward4492]

Glad to see you're being a little more receptive, Armando summed it up succinctly.....row and erg. I am strictly an "erger" with less than a year's experience, but I have an extensive background in endurance sports; in particular bicycle racing. One thing i learned on the bike (time trialing) and carried over to the erg, you can't "will" your way to faster times. In training you do intervals and practice TT's to get stronger and find your "sweet spot". If you can muster a 7:00 2k in training you will not magically pull 6:40 on race day. Follow Xeno Mueller's advice, get your PR in the last 500m. And if you have nothing left with 500m to go, you'll be glad you went out at a do-able pace. Everybody feels good in the first 500m, it's the last 500m that counts. I won two small events this year coming from behind. I don't even look at the other ergs until I'm down around 500m, at that point you can afford to use a little motivation to drive it to the line.Not sure why you're spending time running unless you have no access to an erg.You need to prioritize: in the boat, on the erg, weights. It's not possible to do quality weight work for 2-3 hours straight.

One thing you did not mention. You said you weigh 190lbs. How's your body composition? Is there fat to be lost or are you muscular? Trying to make lightweight is probably not realistic if you're under 15% body fat.

Good luck!

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Obviously you don't want to completely contradict your coach, but maybe you can talk with her about it. I'm not sure what sort of experience she has, but ask why she's suggesting you follow the plan she gave you.

I understand you're busy, and that's rough, but that's where you have to make a tough decision. How badly do you want to get better/faster? How badly would you like to get recruited/walk-on to an Ivy League rowing program? If you want it bad enough, you'll go to great lengths to get there. I think you mentioned you'll be at Harvard - shoot the coaching staff an e-mail. I'm sure they train over the summer, see if they can get you access to their ergs/facilities. Probably not, but asking won't hurt. I'm sure you can find an erg at one of the Harvard gyms.

Again, it will be tough, that's understandable. Maybe at the end of the day you really don't have access to an erg or a boat. If so my suggestions would be to do lots of biking, some running, swimming, and a bit of weights. The reason I stress biking the most is because from what I have read/heard it's the most used crosstraining tool for rowers (outside of skiing, which you won't have access to). Mahe Drysdale pretty much trained 50/50 on the bike and erg/boat for the last Olympics because of his back issues. Wouldn't be optimal, but you have to make the most of what you have.

[Hrath]

@Edward4492
I am not really aware of my body fat percentage, however I would guesstimate it is around 20-22% (that being the reason I thought I could make lightweight, leaving me at around 7% bodyfat)
I will definitely try to erg as much as possible (hopefully every day, although maybe not in order to avoid injuries), unfortunately as I have said rowing on the water might not be possible often.

[ArmandoChavezUNC]

Something else I just thought of - you're going to be in Harvard. The Charles River is teeming with boat houses. You have MIT, Harvard, Northeastern, Boston University, Riverside Boat Club, Community Rowing, Union Boat Club.

I am 100% sure you can find an erg and a single you can use at any of those boathouses. They'll probably charge you a fee, but there are enough boats/ergs there for an entire country to train (slight exaggeration)

[Edward4492]

For what it's worth, referencing Armando's comments regarding cycling. I've been a bicycle racer for the past ten years, finished over 300 races. I'm not particularly good; no wins and mostly "pack fill". I'm a Category 3 racer, which means I'm reasonably competent and race consistently. I may be the only "test case" for erging as prep for cycling. I was off the bike 100% from November to March; my only work-outs were on the erg. I literally did my last erg event on March 1st at 4:00 pm and my first bike race on March 2 at 9:00 am. Surprisingly, I finished with the pack, did not get dropped. I've now done six races on the bike this season with zero
training and continue to ride at the same level I've always ridden (just hangin' on with the bunch). I've maintained a consistent erg schedule ( six days a week, 60k to 80k per week). So... I can't say for sure if bicycle training will prepare one for rowing; but the sports seem to cross over nicely. I've had reasonable success on the erg which I attribute to the cycling background. And cycling is very low impact as compared to running. Rocket Roy Brooks is serious cyclist as is "Cyclingman" and many other who post here. As a side note, I also maintain a scrupulous diet. 57 years old, 6', 163-165 pounds, sub 10% bodyfat. Erging and dieting took me from 175lbs to low 160's.

[Hrath]

@ArmandoChavezUNC
I realize that there are a lot of boat houses on the charles, however I was going to go to a private gym (Seen pictures of their ergs, looks like they're okay- ~$90 gym membership) as the majority of them will not allow me use of the ergs specifically (although I'm pretty sure single use is allowed, however I don't have $200-$400 to spend on a slightly better single than I can get for free @harvard).


@Edward 4492
I'm not much of a cyclist so I can't really compare there, however would you be willing to help me find a good diet? I have been looking all over in addition to asking my coaches, however most just tell me to eat as much as I want (besides sweets+junk food of course) because a heavyweight requires as much energy as possible.

[Edward4492]

With the disclaimer that I am not a dietician or nutritionist,,,,,I can tell ya what worked for me. I honestly believe the average person who is carrying excess fat eats a lot of " inadvertent" calories. I know I do. I found it easy to find(and eliminate) 700 - 800 cals a day that I really wasn't accounting for. I also believe the average masters or high school/college athlete grossly over-estimates how many calories they are burning. And last of my core dietary beliefs, I've come to believe that certain foods trigger an insulin surge that promotes fat storage. With all of that said, when I'm looking to strip weight I eat mostly a Paleo style diet. I bottomed out at 160.5 and now I let my weigh drift up to 166-168. I allow myself the junk (I still have a sweet tooth) when I want it, but I weigh myself daily and get right back on track when I'm trending much above 166. Keep in mind I erg 10k to 12k six days a week and bicycle race 2 - 3 weekends an month through to September.
.
As for specifics, I'll take you through a typical day when I'm "on it". This will amount to about 2000 cals a day and I ate this way for about 10 weeks straight during the winter erg season:
Breakfast: (2) eggs, scrambled or hard boiled with some ham or bacon, and cheddar. If it was a heavy work out day maybe oatmeal with some natural peanut butter mixed in.
Mid-morning: 2 oz of nuts (cashews, almonds, macadamias), kiwi or blueberries or strawberries (2 oz)
Lunch: Usually meat left over from dinner, such as chicken, pot roast, steak, or sliced turkey ( about six ounces). No bread. Sliced peppers, onions, mushrooms, olives. Other times salmon or tuna in a foil pack.
Afternoon: i would munch on baby carrots or alternative veggie from lunch (peppers, or brocolli). I also started eating dried green beans (tastes a lot better than it sounds).
Dinner: Again meat, chicken or fish. Usually a bag of steamed mixed veggies. Or stir fry in olive oil portabella caps, peppers, baby spinach.Baby asparagas another favorite. Sweet potatoes were almost a daily staple (save a half for lunch the next day. I would really load up on the veggies at dinner to where I was completely full. I like coffee, so I would have a cup in the morning and evening with cream and a small amount of sugar, another 2 - 3 cups black. I like a glass of red wine in the evening, I'll have it with a peice of cheddar cheese. If I need to lose weight fast, I'll cut that out for short periods of time.
usually I'm okay with a glass of wine. If you want to lose weight the sugar, grains, beer, and obvious junk have got to go. I also drink a product called "All Day Energy Greens" which has several servings of veggies and extremely low cal.

But.....here's how you keep your sanity after maybe two weeks of super-strict, start to allow yourself one cheat day per week. Don't go nuts and forcibly pig-out. But eat what you want. During the week if you get the urge for a donut, just tell yourself that you'll have it on your cheat day. There's science to suggest that this will keep your metabolism revvin' along.
No gatorade, no iced tea, no soda. no protein shakes. i use a sugar free whey protein after an erg session, but I cut that out when I'm trying to get down. When you are going hard on the erg you're burning at a 1000 cal per hour rate. But that's only while you are pulling. Very few people are honestly burning 1000 cals for every hour they're in the gym. go easy on the fueling.

Drink lots of water.Eat quality food, No crap. If you're feeling weak and you're losing weight fast; you may need to eat more. If your gonna eat the bagels, donuts, muffins etc. do it after a heavy work-out. if you're not losing weight, you're still eating too much.

Hope this helps. Again, I'm no doctor and I'm not a professional, but it's what works for me.