Big change at top of nonathlon

[hjs]

Paul, I for one think you have done an excellent job in constructing an age-weighted system. I don't think there are any real reasons why a 25 yr old could not be atop the standings. Younger poeple just don't have the interest in age-weighted competitions.

s.

So you think its possible to set the wr with a woping 50 nonathlon point for the 2k, so from 5.36 to far below 5.30,

[Bob S.]

So far there have been two major reasons for the lack of young competitors in the upper ranks of the nonathlon that have not been emphasized on this thread. Time and interest. For the most part, the elite of the rowing world are those who are on or trying to get on national OTW teams. A lot of them are not even interested in posting their ranking, let alone taking the time to do all the 10 nonathlon events. That would not be productive to their main interests. The same is true of the young people for whom rowing, either OTW or OTE, is a major recreation and/or exercise activity. Most of them have a combination of working for a living and taking care of family responsibilities. Those that do use rowing for competitive fun and exercise are most likely to be interested in concentrating on the public competitive events, which are mostly in the 1k to 5k range on the water, and practically all at 2k on the erg. T?he nonathlon itself is the only incentive to do the whole 10 events at a competitive level. It is mostly the older, retired folks who have the time and luxury of working on doing the whole set.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

A lot of them are not even interested in posting their ranking, let alone taking the time to do all the 10 nonathlon events.

Exactly. I still see no reason why a 25 yr old could not be at the top of the rankings if so interested. I'm not exactly sure what data is used to construct the standards for all ages, genders, and weights, but I don't think that WR's alone should be it. I'm thinking more along the line of the average of the top 10 rowers in each category. Nor do I think that a WR should be rowed to get 1000 pts. The WR for 60+, HWt, male is 6:23.7. That was probably a fluke. 1000 pts should represent a very high effort but not necessarily a WR.

Any comments on the other subject in this topic?

[hjs]

Edit, I looked what 1030 points would give for a 46 year for 500/1k/2k, 1030 are the scores that are best.

A 46 year needs 1.15 2.44 5.48 never done by anyone
A 25 year needs to be lot faster.

So far there have been two major reasons for the lack of young competitors in the upper ranks of the nonathlon that have not been emphasized on this thread. Time and interest. For the most part, the elite of the rowing world are those who are on or trying to get on national OTW teams. A lot of them are not even interested in posting their ranking, let alone taking the time to do all the 10 nonathlon events. That would not be productive to their main interests. The same is true of the young people for whom rowing, either OTW or OTE, is a major recreation and/or exercise activity. Most of them have a combination of working for a living and taking care of family responsibilities. Those that do use rowing for competitive fun and exercise are most likely to be interested in concentrating on the public competitive events, which are mostly in the 1k to 5k range on the water, and practically all at 2k on the erg. T?he nonathlon itself is the only incentive to do the whole 10 events at a competitive level. It is mostly the older, retired folks who have the time and luxury of working on doing the whole set.

Bob S.

Very true, but I still think the very best result should get the highest points. Everything else should be worth less, if not system does not mean much. Like I said its nice for senior rowers, but I don,t think beyond the say 25 many rowers bother or take it serious.

And like I said some people think 25 years can score beyond 1000 points, meaning best times set by olympic top rowers at there best its difficult to reach some kind of agreement.
And when scores which are done are called fluke, while instead the small number of older athletes is the reason no more people reach those results.

All in all its nice, but only seniors can reach the top, like every year is proven. The scoring says little about the results it stands for.

[ninthor]

Gentlemen,

I would like to apologize for any breach of posting protocol. I am confident a review of the chronology and content of my historic C2 postings demonstrates I have never emplyed stealth, in any fashion, as a ranking stratagem.

Also, I would recommend caution and restraint be exercised when characterizing an individual’s background or lifestyle. Years of observation has demonstrated to me that callow reporting often is prone to exaggeration and personal trespass, a disservice to all.

Once again, please accept my apologies for the ill-timed action and I wish great success to those who are striving to improve their ranking prior to May 1. Similarly, my best wishes to you all for an enjoyable and healthy 2014 season.

Aloha,
tj

[PaulH]

TJ - it goes without saying that you're under no obligation to even know about the Nonathlon, let alone to enter it, but if you do want to record your times there at any time you're officially always very welcome. I wouldn't describe your fashionably late-to-the-party entry as ill-timed, I think it's just that we normals sometimes get a little dazed when giants walk among us

Cheers, Paul (the Nonathlon guy, in case that wasn't obvious).

[Cyclingman1]

TJ,

So glad to see a post from the certainly the most accomplished rower in the world for those age 60 and above over the last several years and one of the best regardless of age. The first thing to say is that anywhere there are rankings for rowers, your name should be on the list. Furthermore, it should be noticed and acknowledged by all that all of your C2 postings are verified by rower internal codes – there is NO doubt of their legitimacy. Most of us cannot make that claim. There is no doubt that your name belongs in the nonathlon rankings. Upon reading this post, you MUST restore your times, or I may come to Hawaii and twist your arm.

However, you have to acknowledge that your rowing times relative to age are nothing short of remarkable, almost shocking. I do think the timing and suddenness of your postings could and maybe did take people aback. Easing people into your extraordinary times might make your kicking everyone’s butt a little more palatable.

Perhaps it is a personal security issue for you, but you decline to reveal ANY personal info: no photo, no statement, and to this point no C2 profile. You already have a high profile because your name is at the head of every list in the C2 rankings. That accentuates the curiosity of those wanting to understand just who is this guy from Hawaii who exceeds us all. I’m sure most C2 participants want to know some details about TJ Oesterling.

I don’t really like this apology coming from you. It is not your fault that you are an extraordinary athlete. The problem is 90% on the side of those who have a hard time dealing with that.

If exaggerated statements have been made in this topic regarding you, then that is a shame. That was not the intent.

The bottom line of this meandering post is that nobody wants to see your nonathlon times erased. Now there is an empty slot at the top of the rankings. The current #1 is really #2. You really need to set things right.

Lastly, I would like to encourage you to row in C2 authorized regattas and officially claim 2K world records in relevant years.

Jim G

[Bob S.]

TJ,

Lastly, I would like to encourage you to row in C2 authorized regattas and officially claim 2K world records in relevant years.

Jim G

That's easy to say for some one living on the eastern seaboard of the U.S. It is a lot different in other parts of the world and even in this country, especially Alaska and Hawaii. And why the fixation on ranking (as expressed on another thread)? No one is obliged rank their results - even if they are asking advice on this forum. And no one is obliged to enter their results in the nonathlon - even if they have done all the events and have exceptional results for those events. Satisfying the curiosity of the rest of us is not a valid reason for doing these things.

Bob S.

[Cyclingman1]

Gosh, what to say? Of course no one is obligated in any area of rowing unless they bump up against some kind of enforcement. It is after all a voluntary sport or recreation. But then there are rowing communities of various formalities with protocols and spoken and unspoken rules. Even online participation comes with some rules. One needs to look no further than these forums to see someone banned for spewing forth ridiculous information.

C2 has few rules regarding rankings, but even they insist on verified times for those times to be considered a WR or even to have #1 or 2 associated with them. Most rankings in the C2 rankings are not of the verified type, which is fine with me. It is an honor system. However, when someone in the C2 forums starts discussing their times, especially in regard as to how good they are, it would be good for them to have posted their times in the rankings. If not, why even come to the C2 site. If one is part of another congregation of rowers, fine. Seek answers there.

Regarding nonathlon, I’m sure that perhaps a majority of rowers have never heard of nonathlon. There are only about 400 participants compared to 30K for C2. But it is an interesting conception. I personally like to see all participants do so in the spirit of friendly competition. Nonathlon is not supposed to have the cut-throat atmosphere like that of OTW Olympic trials.

I only suggest C2 sanctioned events for the official recognition. If that is unimportant, then why bother with the expense of attending a C2 regatta.

[rowmyboat]

Seems to me that TJ was damned if he did and damned if he didn't post results. I didn't realise he had posted his results at some stage and I'm sorry they've been taken down.

It appears to me that the Nonathlon is used as a personal challenge for most folk. A challenge to see just how many targets they can achieve in the season and judge improvement on the previous year. I know I started using it when I became aware of it after I'd been using the indoor rower for a couple of seasons. It was my main tool for keeping me on track and showing just which session I needed to work on more.

I'm not so naive to realise that there are many other ergers out there who are more than capable of topping the challenge, but use it for what it's for, something to fuel enthusiasm, keep a personal interest in your times compared to others in your age group (just wish as there has been mention of, there were many more using it) and of course it's difficult for Paul to perfect it if there aren't enough paticipants.

As for mention of 'oldies' always at the top... I notice that statement is usually said by someone who isn't participating.

[rowmyboat]

I now see people scoring very high who are not even on top of there game due to injurees. In the higher age groups points are to easy to gain.

Oh Henry... your 'bold' statements leave me little choice but to reply. I wonder if that remark is pointed towards me. If it was then you should have noted that my score hasn't changed for a couple of months (while I recover from injury). If not injured I would possibly have improved a couple of 'dismal looking' results.

And.. by the way... no points are 'easy to gain' - it's all hard work I can assure you of that! Why do some folk not do the FM or even the HM - you included? Because it's far from easy work that's why. I looked at the score of the 2nd placegetter recently, he had just completed the FM and I've no doubt he didn't find that 'easy'. I take it he's a cyclist so possibly hasn't got the stamina of the upper body that is needed for a top FM, something that we usually only do once a year anyway.

Stop picking on the seniors, why not turn it around the other way and ask the younger ones why they don't enter? I'll tell you why... because the young ones can't commit themselves as well as the older competitors. They have too many choices in life and you'll probably find when they reach the ripe old age of 60, 70 or 80, they might just decide to direct their energy into the indoor rower. You tell us we have it 'easy'? Count yourself lucky that when you're my age I probably won't be around to see what sort of results you'll be doing... but if I am I can assure you I'll be keeping an eye on you.

[rowmyboat]

While I'm at it (I've already posted twice - what's another one) - TJ was encouraged/invited to add his scores to the Nonathlon event not so very long ago. He evidently did so and was cried down because he posted them all at once. For goodness sake, by that stage he would have completed all the disciplines.

I'm at a complete loss in understanding this. Am I missing something?

[hjs]

Shirley..

A simple no, yes you are one, but look at the list and there are people far from topfit scoring high. My statements are never bold, but I don,t sugarcoat the facts. It is what it is, for me sports are a piramide, from young it climbs to the top and back down. To be the best you need to be in your prime.
An argument could be, at that age health problems are part of the deal.

I still think if a system will not let the very best be on top, its not good, but for those who use it, its nice, but that is the seniors, no one else.

I now see people scoring very high who are not even on top of there game due to injurees. In the higher age groups points are to easy to gain.

Oh Henry... your 'bold' statements leave me little choice but to reply. I wonder if that remark is pointed towards me. If it was then you should have noted that my score hasn't changed for a couple of months (while I recover from injury). If not injured I would possibly have improved a couple of 'dismal looking' results.

And.. by the way... no points are 'easy to gain' - it's all hard work I can assure you of that! Why do some folk not do the FM or even the HM - you included? Because it's far from easy work that's why. I looked at the score of the 2nd placegetter recently, he had just completed the FM and I've no doubt he didn't find that 'easy'. I take it he's a cyclist so possibly hasn't got the stamina of the upper body that is needed for a top FM, something that we usually only do once a year anyway.

Stop picking on the seniors, why not turn it around the other way and ask the younger ones why they don't enter? I'll tell you why... because the young ones can't commit themselves as well as the older competitors. They have too many choices in life and you'll probably find when they reach the ripe old age of 60, 70 or 80, they might just decide to direct their energy into the indoor rower. You tell us we have it 'easy'? Count yourself lucky that when you're my age I probably won't be around to see what sort of results you'll be doing... but if I am I can assure you I'll be keeping an eye on you.

[rowmyboat]

Shirley..

A simple no, yes you are one, but look at the list and there are people far from topfit scoring high. My statements are never bold, but I don,t sugarcoat the facts. It is what it is, for me sports are a piramide, from young it climbs to the top and back down. To be the best you need to be in your prime.
An argument could be, at that age health problems are part of the deal.

I still think if a system will not let the very best be on top, its not good, but for those who use it, its nice, but that is the seniors, no one else.

When is a person's 'prime' Henry? A lot of folk weren't in the position to take up the sport until perhaps children left home or even when they retired from work. Many sports are non-competitive but it doesn't mean to say that people not in their 'prime' - whatever age you take that as - aren't meant to be competitive. Having age groups, in many sports, allows that competitive spirit to emerge and that doesn't mean to say it isn't going to be a top performance. That's exactly what age group sport is all about and the Nonathlon promotes good healthy competition with each person mainly working to improve their own position by improving their performances. There's no reward at the top, there's no medals, no prizes. Take the WIRC, CIRC or BIRC competitions, even some of your European ones, the 'top' ergers are never going to be all together in the one place at the same time. Does that diminish the fact that the winners were top of their age group on that particular day? There are flaws in those events too but as in the Nonathlon it's very hard to use a formula to satisfy everyone.

Injury, illness... it happens at all ages, not just the seniors, you only have to read the blogs to realise that. Surely you don't want to see all over 30's (or whoever is not in their 'prime') stop playing sport, or play just for the fun of it. There's competition in sport, business, music and many other aspects of life, it's natural, it's healthy.

Perhaps a Nonathlon for 40 and over and a separate one for under 40's could be mooted? Wouldn't be much competition in the under 40's would there... what would you then be saying about the person in the top spot I wonder - not enough competitors for it to mean anything? Lighten up Henry, take it for what it is. Paul is continually working to improve it, in the meantime get with it, it's all in aid of improved erg times and enjoyment.

[hjs]

Ones prime is simple, when you perfom at your max potential, roughly 18/35 ish of age. Its about abolute performance, the peak of human performance.

Lighten up , I am fine with the nonathlon, but the numbers simply mean nothing. 1000 points on the 2 k for a 30 year old man means we have top top top perormance.
1000 points in many other occacions is nothing special and could easily be bettered.

Thst is why the nonathlon in this form wil stay very small and maybe 25 people care. Its rewards staying alive and sitting on an erg.