Cross Team Challenge - Discussion Thread

[Rod]

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

''Min rest''......does this mean you can have longer if you like? If so, what is the ''Max'' rest?

What if you do the first 5 really slowly but at 21 spm or higher so they are disqualified then using a rolling start (as it has not been specified that they can't be used) then do the 6th one at full pace/effort and keep to 20 spm then claim that one?

[CaseyClarke]

Here is the Mercian Fitness choice for the January CTC:

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

This is totally, totally daft. Can it be changed?

Specifying 20spm on such short intervals is not only a recipe for a bad back, but will also lead to dozens of results which include reps that have unintentionally gone a stroke or two over the 20spm cap, ie 21, 22 etc. There needs to be a rule specified about this? Are we disqualifying just those reps, or is the whole thing now just a null and void?

For example, if my slowest is at r21, but my second slowest is at r20, what rep am I entering?

And this could easily be gamed! Five deliberate soft reps a bit over the rate cap to disqualify those reps, and a hard 6th at r20 as your scoring rep.

Lastly ‘slowest interval counts’ will get taken literally by some people, thinking they have to do a rep as slow as possible.

[Rod]

You can post it here or by private message. Casey even follows the Faceborg route and passes things on.
You can wait up to 29th December to give the final notice - there's no rush.

I will post it up here in the next few days.

Thank you.

Ian

Here is the Mercian Fitness choice for the January CTC:

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

Some questions for you in the previous posts MNW.

[CaseyClarke]

I posted this to the Facebook group. Lots of questions about the specifics. Please clarify…

[CaseyClarke]

I just trialled this session. Slowest rep is always gonna be rep 1 from a static flywheel. Pretty easy to match that and go a few splits faster on reps 2-5 when the flywheel is already in motion and you can go from a rolling start, but no real incentive to push on if you’re only scoring the slowest rep.

Totally daft and ridiculous challenge. I’d strongly suggest rethinking this.

[MNW]

Here is the Mercian Fitness choice for the January CTC:

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

This is totally, totally daft. Can it be changed?

Specifying 20spm on such short intervals is not only a recipe for a bad back, but will also lead to dozens of results which include reps that have unintentionally gone a stroke or two over the 20spm cap, ie 21, 22 etc. There needs to be a rule specified about this? Are we disqualifying just those reps, or is the whole thing now just a null and void?

For example, if my slowest is at r21, but my second slowest is at r20, what rep am I entering?

And this could easily be gamed! Five deliberate soft reps a bit over the rate cap to disqualify those reps, and a hard 6th at r20 as your scoring rep.

Lastly ‘slowest interval counts’ will get taken literally by some people, thinking they have to do a rep as slow as possible.

Hi all,

Thank you for your comments and concerns.

Our idea was to try and get people thinking about pacing. In other words if you go out too quickly then you will find it hard to hold the same time for the other reps and conversely, if you go out too slowly in the first rep then you will indeed beat it on the others reps so then you know you should have gone harder in the first rep.

One of my rowers actually asked about the gaming it as well and I said "The CTC is all done on trust so they wont gamify" but I can see further clarification is required.

To clarify then, and I will write it again below, is that you take 60 secs rest. The min bit is indeed confusing and I won't bore you all with what I was trying to do with that but I agree it is confusing. I apologise for that.

Regarding the stroke rate - I think the whole thing needs to be at max spm of 20. If one rep is out they are all out and you need to do it again. It is short enough that that is ok.

I feel that the comment about a bad back is frankly ridiculous as you should be able to row properly with good technique but please enlighten me why it should cause a bad back. You should always be rowing with good technique that does not compromise your back and your pace might be affected as a result.

Just so everyone understands, our little club is made up of older and novice rowers who row at 20-24 spm as a matter of course and we are working on increasing their stroke rates and so we chose a CTC that suits their slower stroke rates.

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval
The whole piece has to be done at Max 20SPM (If one interval is out then the piece is invalid).

I totally understand if the community do not like this challenge but I think it is valid. We have done one like this before and the pacing element makes it interesting.

If the organisers feel I am in the wrong here then let us alter it slightly and make it that the score you record is the average pace for the whole thing.

If the organisers agree with the person who believes that it is asking for a bad back then alter it to a 24SPM limit but how this alters the bad back thing is beyond me.

Equally, if I have got this so badly wrong and the community thinks I am wrong then I accept defeat and will propose the following which was the second choice of our team.

The Golden Mile
1609m
Record your time.
No Limit
Standing Start

Thanks all.

Ian

[MNW]

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

''Min rest''......does this mean you can have longer if you like? If so, what is the ''Max'' rest?

What if you do the first 5 really slowly but at 21 spm or higher so they are disqualified then using a rolling start (as it has not been specified that they can't be used) then do the 6th one at full pace/effort and keep to 20 spm then claim that one?

Yes sorry this was confusing. 60 Secs rest.

Ian

[Rod]

Thank you for the reply Ian.

I think the one mile will prove far more popular so would like to see that as the January CTC.

I think the 250's will just confuse too many people.

[MNW]

Thank you for the reply Ian.

I think the one mile will prove far more popular so would like to see that as the January CTC.

I think the 250's will just confuse too many people.

I get that Rod but we have chosen it to suit our team not for popularity.

I don't think it is confusing at all.

I will let the organisers choose which one they want to run with.

Thanks for pointing out where I hadn't explained it properly.

Ian

[Sakly]

Thank you for the reply Ian.

I think the one mile will prove far more popular so would like to see that as the January CTC.

I think the 250's will just confuse too many people.

I get that Rod but we have chosen it to suit our team not for popularity.

I don't think it is confusing at all.

I will let the organisers choose which one they want to run with.

Thanks for pointing out where I hadn't explained it properly.

Ian

To throw in an opinion from a relatively newbee: I would go with the 250s, as this was the intended challenge. Now the rules are much more clear and challenge can be performed without question.
I also don't see a problem by low rate hard efforts for the back.

[Rod]

I get that Rod but we have chosen it to suit our team not for popularity.
Ian

It is traditional for teams that are setting the challenge to take ''popularity'' into account Ian. I guess you were not aware of this.

There has been a lot of concern in my team (The Diamonds (Over Sixties Erging Group) ) about 250's at 20 spm due to the potential for injury so if it goes ahead we will not get anything like our usual turnout in fact I'll have to agree with what has already been said within the team and that is to recommend to our members that they do not take part in this one.

There are no ''Organisers'' that choose Ian, choices are the subject of discussion and consensus between the competing teams, it sounds like you were not aware of this either.

Speaking for my team, I think the mile will be far more popular than the 250's.

It will be down to what teams say what and what comes out as most popular choice.

I've said which of the two my team would likely prefer but as always will go with what the majority want.

[nick rockliff]

Here is the Mercian Fitness choice for the January CTC:

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Min Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval

This is totally, totally daft. Can it be changed?

Specifying 20spm on such short intervals is not only a recipe for a bad back, but will also lead to dozens of results which include reps that have unintentionally gone a stroke or two over the 20spm cap, ie 21, 22 etc. There needs to be a rule specified about this? Are we disqualifying just those reps, or is the whole thing now just a null and void?

For example, if my slowest is at r21, but my second slowest is at r20, what rep am I entering?

And this could easily be gamed! Five deliberate soft reps a bit over the rate cap to disqualify those reps, and a hard 6th at r20 as your scoring rep.

Lastly ‘slowest interval counts’ will get taken literally by some people, thinking they have to do a rep as slow as possible.

Hi all,

Thank you for your comments and concerns.

Our idea was to try and get people thinking about pacing. In other words if you go out too quickly then you will find it hard to hold the same time for the other reps and conversely, if you go out too slowly in the first rep then you will indeed beat it on the others reps so then you know you should have gone harder in the first rep.

One of my rowers actually asked about the gaming it as well and I said "The CTC is all done on trust so they wont gamify" but I can see further clarification is required.

To clarify then, and I will write it again below, is that you take 60 secs rest. The min bit is indeed confusing and I won't bore you all with what I was trying to do with that but I agree it is confusing. I apologise for that.

Regarding the stroke rate - I think the whole thing needs to be at max spm of 20. If one rep is out they are all out and you need to do it again. It is short enough that that is ok.

I feel that the comment about a bad back is frankly ridiculous as you should be able to row properly with good technique but please enlighten me why it should cause a bad back. You should always be rowing with good technique that does not compromise your back and your pace might be affected as a result.

Just so everyone understands, our little club is made up of older and novice rowers who row at 20-24 spm as a matter of course and we are working on increasing their stroke rates and so we chose a CTC that suits their slower stroke rates.

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval
The whole piece has to be done at Max 20SPM (If one interval is out then the piece is invalid).

I totally understand if the community do not like this challenge but I think it is valid. We have done one like this before and the pacing element makes it interesting.

If the organisers feel I am in the wrong here then let us alter it slightly and make it that the score you record is the average pace for the whole thing.

If the organisers agree with the person who believes that it is asking for a bad back then alter it to a 24SPM limit but how this alters the bad back thing is beyond me.

Equally, if I have got this so badly wrong and the community thinks I am wrong then I accept defeat and will propose the following which was the second choice of our team.

The Golden Mile
1609m
Record your time.
No Limit
Standing Start

Thanks all.

Ian

Can you also clarify if each rep is from a dead flywheel or are you allowing rowing between reps to keep the flywheel moving. Makes a big difference for sessions like this.

Personally, I think it should be a standing start for each rep.

[CaseyClarke]

Think you need to stick with the 250s. Changing it now after I’ve announced it in the Facebook group just looks silly.

Just needed clarification on overrating one or any of the reps, which you’ve given. I think they’ll be a lot of invalid efforts where people accidentally go to rate 21.

Lastly, you can’t police standing starts and nobody would read the small print for that anyway, so it just needs to be a choice or rolling or standing, as it normally is.

[EBruton]

This kind of challenge has been done before in April 2021 :

Apr 2021 - Control yourself

Row 10 minutes at R20
Rest 5 minutes
Row 10 minutes at R20
Both reps are restricted to a stroke rate of 20 SPM

Deduct 100 metres from your distance for every stroke per minute over 20.

Record the adjusted distance rowed for the slower of your two repetitions.

I think this is a good challenge as it makes you consider your pace while being disciplined with the stroke rate.

[MNW]

I get that Rod but we have chosen it to suit our team not for popularity.
Ian

It is traditional for teams that are setting the challenge to take ''popularity'' into account Ian. I guess you were not aware of this.

There has been a lot of concern in my team (The Diamonds (Over Sixties Erging Group) ) about 250's at 20 spm due to the potential for injury so if it goes ahead we will not get anything like our usual turnout in fact I'll have to agree with what has already been said within the team and that is to recommend to our members that they do not take part in this one.

There are no ''Organisers'' that choose Ian, choices are the subject of discussion and consensus between the competing teams, it sounds like you were not aware of this either.

Speaking for my team, I think the mile will be far more popular than the 250's.

It will be down to what teams say what and what comes out as most popular choice.

I've said which of the two my team would likely prefer but as always will go with what the majority want.

Thank you for your reply and comments.

I am at a total loss as to why our nomination for Jan 24 is so problematic. I cannot see how a restricted rate can hurt your back unless technique is so bad that you cannot get a good "catch" and brace properly or the rowing is totally out of control in a "all out" manner.

I am going to suggest that our suggestion counts and I am sorry it is not popular with your members.

My members haven't liked some of the previous choices but I was under the understanding that the variety is what makes this interesting and I have never seen such a discussion about a group's choice before. I understand we might need clarification at times but I feel this is going beyond that.

So Mercian Fitness still suggests the 6 x 250m with a restricted rate of 20spm.

No-one is saying sprint it out at max at all. So if you hurt your back doing 250m then you will hurt your back doing 10 mins of it. Row properly, work on your core stability and protect your back with great technique and a good catch.

It is worth looking back over the years at previous CTC challenges:

Apr 2021 - Control yourself
Row 10 minutes at R20
Rest 5 minutes
Row 10 minutes at R20
Both reps are restricted to a stroke rate of 20 SPM

Mar 2012 - restricted rate pyramid
You need to row 5 minutes, 30 seconds rest, 4 minutes, 30s rest, 3min, 30s rest, 2min, 30s, 1min, 30s and then back up 2m, 30s, 3m, 30s, 4m, 30s and 5mins to finish
You need to complete all reps with a stroke rate restriction of 20 strokes per minute (avg for the piece).

Here's one with the slowest interval idea:
Jul 2007 - Max 4x500m r2:00
Row 4 x 500m intervals with 2 minutes rest between intervals. Enter the time of your SLOWEST INTERVAL (longest interval time)

Jan 2006
30mR20
Best distance for 30 minutes at an average stroke rate of 20 SPM

Popularity - I have not tried to chose an unpopular choice but one that was chosen by our team on votes. I was not aware that I needed to check that our suggestion was popular with everyone.

I have checked the rules and can not see where it says it is about popularity.

Guidelines for entries
Duration of a challenge: There was unease at MAD's 12km challenge which fitted the criterion of an hour for warm-up, row & cool-down when elite rowers were considered but not for slower categories. 10km was established as the limit for single distances or 45 minutes for timed intervals.
Standing/rolling starts: Until recently, rowers made their own choices about how to attack the starts during interval challenges. After much wrangling it was decided that the team proposing the challenge should stipulate the manner of each start.
Interval rests: Again, until recently, it was accepted that rowers could log results when they had taken shorter or no rests during interval pieces. It was agreed that teams could insist on the rests being taken for a valid entry and that this should be included with the challenge. For example, the January 2015 FIRT challenge stipulates a maximum of 6 minutes rest. This implies that a rower could take no rests and submit a distance for 15 minutes continuous rowing.
Rate-limited pieces: It was accepted that a rower could take more than the maximum number of strokes provided that the monitor rounded it down to the stipulated limit. For instance, a 30spm20 piece requires 600 strokes. A rower may pull, say, 608 and still produce a valid entry.
Sliders/Dynamic ergs: There's not been much discussion about their use; it's not even clear whether they provide an advantage over the static erg. Results are valid from both slider and dynamic ergs. Results are not allowed when non-C2 machines are used.
Timing of Entries: To allow late entries to be recorded from all parts of the world, the new challenge does not appear on the CTC site before 12:00GMT on the first day of each month. We rely on rowers to produce their performances during the calendar month in their time-zone.
Multiple Team Participation: Rowers are restricted to making an entry for one team during each monthly CTC.

Some great rowing drills are at restricted SPM.

We stick by this as our entry but if the community really thinks I have got this wrong then I will step away and ask Dougie to choose someone else to decide the Jan 24 CTC.

I also then request that the rules be changed to reflect that no slower stroke rates should be included.

My team agrees with me and so here is the Jan 24 CTC unless it is decided by the community that we should not have a 20SPM restricted rate.

ESME'S DELIGHT

6 x 250m SPM Limited to 20SPM
60 Secs Rest Between Intervals
Slowest Interval Counts
Record Your Time for the Slowest Interval
The whole piece has to be done at Max 20SPM (If one interval is out then the piece is invalid but as per the rules it is the average SPM in each interval that counts).

Ian