Re. ERG Competition Form.

From the CRASH-B's to an online challenge, discuss the competitive side of erging here.
jamesg
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by jamesg » September 20th, 2022, 2:43 am

But the big question is, did the French team win anything with this plan?
No idea, it was old when I found it almost 20 years ago in the C2 Manual.

Maybe that's only what they said they'd do. Even Aesop only told of the tortoise' plan after the race.
08-1940, 183cm, 83kg.
Late 2024: stroke 4W-min@20-22.

Tony Cook
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by Tony Cook » September 20th, 2022, 3:44 am

jamesg wrote:
September 20th, 2022, 2:43 am
But the big question is, did the French team win anything with this plan?
No idea, it was old when I found it almost 20 years ago in the C2 Manual.

Maybe that's only what they said they'd do. Even Aesop only told of the tortoise' plan after the race.
I guess there’s no way of knowing what’s the best, because there is never a perfect control sample to compare.
We see many discussions on here about proportion of time in different training zones, how much strength training v erg training, what DF should I use? Some like times pieces others row distance, some strictly stick to HR caps or zones others have thrown away their HR monitors.
People post decent times in a 2k race/TT using negative split, positive split, even all the way, French protocol, and probably all ports between.
If the same person used different strategies in different races then one time would be quicker than the other (most unlikely to be exactly the same) but that doesn’t mean the strategy was better as how can you measure other factors leading up to that TT? Sleep, diet, general health, problems at work/home? Temperature and humidity on the day.
We can only listen to what others have learned, try things out and find our own best way.
Born 1963 6' 5" 100Kg
PBs from 2020 - 100m 15.7s - 1min 355m - 500m 1:28.4 - 1k 3:10.6 - 2k 6:31.6 - 5k 17:34.9 - 6k 20:57.5 - 30min @ 20SPM 8,336m - 10k 36:28.0 - 1 hour 16,094m - HM 1:18:51.7
2021 - 5k 17:26 - FM 2:53:37.0

btlifter
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by btlifter » September 28th, 2022, 1:08 pm

Mike Caviston wrote:
September 18th, 2022, 5:31 pm
The so-called French Protocol is ridiculous. I defy anyone to prove it is based on objective data and not someone’s overactive imagination. Starting a 2K at a pace you know is faster than you can hold for the entire race guarantees you will not achieve your best performance.
I can't speak for the specifics of the French Protocal. But aggregate data on mid-distance endurance events does show that the fastest times tend to follow a degree of a "U-shaped" pacing pattern.

As to whether that is owed to such a pattern being the most efficient use of energy systems, or a biproduct of adrenaline/positioning, I can only speculate.
chop stuff and carry stuff

Tsnor
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by Tsnor » September 28th, 2022, 2:38 pm

If there is a best strategy for 2K it's hard to see from winning results. I looked at 3 of the 2022 indoor rowing mens open heat. No two rowed the same strategy. () contents are split time and percent of total time. No idea if SPM are average or interval end.

Top finisher at indoor world champs mens open 2K used slightly negative splits.

Ward Lemmelijn
01:26.7 37 spm (25.4%)
02:52.9 36 spm (01:26.20 25.2%)
04:18.3 35 spm (01:25.40 25.0%)
05:41.7 40 spm (01:23.40 24.4%)

2nd place used fly and die / positive splits.

Alexander Vyazovkin
01:23.3 37 spm (24.3%)
02:48.7 36 spm (01:25.40 24.9%)
04:15.0 36 spm (01:26.30 25.2%)
05:42.5 37 spm (01:27.50 25.5%)

Top French finisher (7th) may have used French method. Look at the pace graph here: https://regatta.time-team.nl/wrich/2022 ... 34e953.php Huge difference vs the other competitors who's graphs are constant or gradual decline. Compare with first place https://regatta.time-team.nl/wrich/2022 ... fd95dc.php

Vincent Matz
01:27.5 34 spm (24.7%)
02:56.8 32 spm (01:29.30 25.2%)
04:26.3 34 spm (01:29.50 25.2%)
05:54.9 37 spm (01:28.60 25.0%)

For the 500m mens open, looking at the pace graphs, everyone was positive splitting / losing pace over the 500m including 2nd place CAN Cameron Wharram 01:11.9 who locked into a 1:07 pace (1160 watts) for the first bit. nice.

https://worldrowing.com/event/2022-worl ... mpionships

JaapvanE
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by JaapvanE » September 28th, 2022, 3:21 pm

I looked at OTW skiff races last weekend (World Championships in Racice), and there is another aspect visible. Some rowers start with a sprint to build up some initial distance with the rest of the field. Then, they seem to slow down and focus on "staying ahead" by just keeping up pace with whoever is number two. If the number two is a team on a negative split, the number one will have a U-shaped strategy just to maintain the distance.

Mike Caviston
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by Mike Caviston » September 29th, 2022, 12:34 am

Tony Cook wrote:
September 20th, 2022, 3:44 am
I guess there’s no way of knowing what’s the best, because there is never a perfect control sample to compare.
btlifter wrote:
September 28th, 2022, 1:08 pm
I can't speak for the specifics of the French Protocal. But aggregate data on mid-distance endurance events does show that the fastest times tend to follow a degree of a "U-shaped" pacing pattern.
Tsnor wrote:
September 28th, 2022, 2:38 pm
If there is a best strategy for 2K it's hard to see from winning results.
JaapvanE wrote:
September 28th, 2022, 3:21 pm
I looked at OTW skiff races last weekend (World Championships in Racice), and there is another aspect visible.
I have long been a student of pacing and have made observations on this forum for over 20 years. You may be interested in this thread from 2006-2008:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=326
In the last 14 years I have read a lot more research and collected a lot more race data but really don't have too much to add, except that negative split racing has become a lot more common at the Olympic and World Championship level than when I initially started gathering data, and it is clearly more effective than the traditional "fast-slow-slow-fast" approach.

Coincidentally, I was just reading about Kipchoge's recent marathon world record:
https://olympics.com/en/news/how-fast-w ... rld-record
His comments about his race plan are interesting.

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jackarabit
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Re: Re. ERG Competition Form.

Post by jackarabit » October 2nd, 2022, 4:06 pm

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=326

Looks familiar. Take note of Tom R’s version of the decremented distance, negative paced 2k execution which Mike C. “gave” to Dougie. Tom lists prescribed distance @ each pace and in parentheses, percentage of total distance, to wit, 40-30-20-10% of 2km or 800,600,400,200m.

Below are four examples of laminated “cue cards” which I made for my personal use in 40 and 60’ Wolverine Level 4 workouts. Most respondents to this thread will have some experience of selecting from the L4 10’ and 6’ sequences to produce 40’ or 1 hour workouts. These workouts executed @ prescribed pace/rate combinations should produce a progressive workload and higher average stroke rate over course of a training season.

Top row is remaining time in minutes at each rate change. Middle row is rate. Bottom row is total strokes at each rate change. So a mneumonic or cheat sheet to promote awareness of time waypoints on PM or ErgData and running stroke subtotals from ED or counting strokes. Total strokes is in red ink. 168 strokes/10’ is 16.8 rate average for sequence.

The 2nd and third sequences are certainly more demanding than the low rate, regular rate alternation of the first sequence. Both are ascending rate ladders producing 21.0 and 22.0 average spm when done to spec. The ‘210’ and ‘220’ decrement time at rate at each change such that the 4’-3’-2’-1’ succession is remarkably suggestive of the 40-30-20-10% of 2k virtual distance mentioned by Tom. (The ‘220 Up’ is usually judged “harder” than the 220 despite identical total stroke counts. Where is the difficulty? Obviously time @ rate. Incremented time @ rate and ascending rate ladder are coincident.)

I consider the 210 and 220 sequences formal templates of the negative-paced, 800,600,400,200m execution mentioned in my post and in old thread linked by MC.

As for the “flattened J’ and ‘Parsons table with one short leg” executions of the French Protocol, they may well hold sway psychologically whatever their results on the clock. :wink:

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