Why only two weight classes?

[MartinSH4321]

I understand the two weight classes to keep things simple. However it gives a man a huge disadvantage if you are on the lower end of the heavy weight class. On the light weight side there can be only 30-40 lbs difference as there are not too many men under 120lbs. competing. However the weight differences on the heavy side can be even over 100 lbs. range which is a huge power difference. Can Concept 2 weight adjusted scores be used for competition ?

No, its about the absolute result. Sport is per definition unfair, thats the beauty of it. If we filter out all differences everybody would come out the same.

Sport is per definition is not unfair unless rules make it unfair. There's a reason there are weight classes like in boxing or weight lifting or age groups. The beauty of sports is to level the field and let the best win.

I can understand your point doubleplay, but it's part of the sport that some people are better built for a specific sport than others. I only know 3 sport groups that have weight classes, Martial arts, weight lifting and rowing.
There's a reason that guys like shaquille o'neal are no marathon runners and a 50kg kenian marathon pro is no shot putter. If you would compensate all these differences (not only weight, also height, body proportions) by rules you would get so many categories in some sports that it gets worthless to win one of them and competitions would get inexecutable.

This would end in ridiculous results I think:
- Would someone pay to see a NBA team where the Center can't be taller than 6ft? Would there be 2,3,4 different NBA leagues?
- Would there be 3-5 weight categories at the Tour de France?
- Track and Field Olympics: would this end in 1.000 winners? Or 10.000?

My opinion on this:
For Martial Arts weight classes are a must (for safety).
In weight lifting I don't understand where there are so many weight classes, and all weight restricted classes are far below super heavyweight in prestige. Almost no one cares about the <100kg strongman competitions, only the open class counts.
If there are weight and height classes for all sports like track and field, running, cycling... almost no one would care about anything else than the open class, and there would be much less competitions.

I'm a fast erg sprinter (as a hobby erger) and pretty heavy, but of course I won't have a chance to win against people like Phil Clapp or Brian Shaw, no matter how hard I train, and looking at the C2 rankings most people with a faster 100m time are much taller and heavier than me. That's no problem for me and I don't think another weight class (and some height classes) would grade up my results.

[hjs]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c1B01A6x9c0

12.9 100m 187 98kg.... Would say pretty handy.

[MartinSH4321]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c1B01A6x9c0

12.9 100m 187 98kg.... Would say pretty handy.

Yep, there are some very fast erger that don't fit the "200cm / 130kg"-scheme for erg sprinters, for 2k the Sinkovic brothers (only 185cm tall), but on average elite rowers are very tall and sprinters also very heavy, height and (functional) weight is an advantage


Last season Oskar Hartmann was Nr. 1 at the 100m ranking with 13.1, according to his profile he is only 180cm and looking at his picture I would guess <90kg (The result is verified but hard to believe tbh).

[hjs]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c1B01A6x9c0

12.9 100m 187 98kg.... Would say pretty handy.

Yep, there are some very fast erger that don't fit the "200cm / 130kg"-scheme for erg sprinters, for 2k the Sinkovic brothers (only 185cm tall), but on average elite rowers are very tall and sprinters also very heavy, height and (functional) weight is an advantage


Last season Oskar Hartmann was Nr. 1 at the 100m ranking with 13.1, according to his profile he is only 180cm and looking at his picture I would guess <90kg (The result is verified but hard to believe tbh).

If you are very athletic and explosive you could be very fast on the ergo. Look at some Basketbal dunkers, the very best are not the 2.00 plus guys, but the super athletic ones. 1.85m guys touching the ring with there head.

Re weight, “functional” is the key word. You can,t be very heavy if you do a lot of aerobic training. And you can,t be superstrong if do a lot of aerobic training, so the best rowers are not that heavy. Ofcourse tall on average, but being 6.9 is not needed. The guys around 5.40 are not all 6.9.

[rtbrouwer]

This would end in ridiculous results I think:
- Would someone pay to see a NBA team where the Center can't be taller than 6ft? Would there be 2,3,4 different NBA leagues?
- Would there be 3-5 weight categories at the Tour de France?
- Track and Field Olympics: would this end in 1.000 winners? Or 10.000?

There is a big diffirent in sports with weight classes and sports without. A) as you mentioned is safety such as in martial arts but All the sports you mention have a place for people with different body types.

• In basketball there is room for big centers but a 1.80m point guard is quite common.....

• Same goes for cycling, I am a big guy in a climbing race I always got dropped, but I raced Paris-Roubaix and did very well. So there are races for the lightweight guys and there are races for the big guys. Even within the tour de france there are guys who do well in the GC and there are sprinters who win stages. Both have a place in Cycling.

• Same goes for Rugby, there are 2.05m 128kg locks on the same pitch as a 1.78m 84kg scrumhalf.

• Track and Field, Some guys do well in sprints, others win 10.000m track races.

So I think that weightclasses can be usefull in sports that have no other way of accomodating diffirent body types. And rowing could be such a sport. Whether you are in a single scull or a men's 8, big and strong is always faster/better (with the same level of technique). Same goes for weightlifting. Same goes for martial arts etc.

The only problem with rowing is that you have have 3 diffirentials (type of boat, male/female, weight) and not a whole lot of rowers, it's not one of the biggest sports in the world. If you create a lot of weightclasses then you would spread the numbers too much and end up with the situation that everybody could win or get a podium in their class.

All in all it's an interesting discussion and I find it hard to take a real stance on this one..

[MartinSH4321]

This would end in ridiculous results I think:
- Would someone pay to see a NBA team where the Center can't be taller than 6ft? Would there be 2,3,4 different NBA leagues?
- Would there be 3-5 weight categories at the Tour de France?
- Track and Field Olympics: would this end in 1.000 winners? Or 10.000?

There is a big diffirent in sports with weight classes and sports without. A) as you mentioned is safety such as in martial arts but All the sports you mention have a place for people with different body types.

• In basketball there is room for big centers but a 1.80m point guard is quite common.....

• Same goes for cycling, I am a big guy in a climbing race I always got dropped, but I raced Paris-Roubaix and did very well. So there are races for the lightweight guys and there are races for the big guys. Even within the tour de france there are guys who do well in the GC and there are sprinters who win stages. Both have a place in Cycling.

• Same goes for Rugby, there are 2.05m 128kg locks on the same pitch as a 1.78m 84kg scrumhalf.

• Track and Field, Some guys do well in sprints, others win 10.000m track races.

So I think that weightclasses can be usefull in sports that have no other way of accomodating diffirent body types. And rowing could be such a sport. Whether you are in a single scull or a men's 8, big and strong is always faster/better (with the same level of technique). Same goes for weightlifting. Same goes for martial arts etc.

The only problem with rowing is that you have have 3 diffirentials (type of boat, male/female, weight) and not a whole lot of rowers, it's not one of the biggest sports in the world. If you create a lot of weightclasses then you would spread the numbers too much and end up with the situation that everybody could win or get a podium in their class.

All in all it's an interesting discussion and I find it hard to take a real stance on this one..

That's my point, if you're not built for a specific distance/position/... there are alternatives in ergo rowing (and in many other sports). In ergo rowing there are 2 weight classes AND a lot of distances. If you're not built for sprints you can do another distance. I read doubleplay's post (and yours from 22.5.) in that way that it's not fair that "normal" people have to compete with superstrong giants in sprints. I think that's OK, as you said there is a place for people with different body types, longer distances may fit better. A 90kg cycler may win stages, but not the whole tour.

re track and fields: There are a lot of events where you need a very specific body type and you don't have an alternative (except doing another event) like shot put, discus, broad jump..., there are no weight or height classes.

As you (and others here) said, for sports that are not as big as soccer, football... more weight categories (which would still be "unfair" as height has a comparable influence on rowing performance) could end in a podium for everyone.

Agree, it's interesting to read the different point of views

[Dangerscouse]

Well, this is a very entertaining thread.

All very respectful too, which is always good to see, so keep them coming as I'm off to get some popcorn so I can settle down and properly enjoy this

[hjs]

One point against weightclasses is Health. In weightlifting and fighting sports weigh ins are the day before. This has let to extreme weighloss strategies. People dehydrate to the max, meet the limit. But the next day, after lots of fluids and food the complete do not weigh what the did the day before. 8% weightgains after weigh in are not uncommon.

[rtbrouwer]

That's my point, if you're not built for a specific distance/position/... there are alternatives in ergo rowing (and in many other sports). In ergo rowing there are 2 weight classes AND a lot of distances. If you're not built for sprints you can do another distance. I read doubleplay's post (and yours from 22.5.) in that way that it's not fair that "normal" people have to compete with superstrong giants in sprints. I think that's OK, as you said there is a place for people with different body types, longer distances may fit better. A 90kg cycler may win stages, but not the whole tour.

re track and fields: There are a lot of events where you need a very specific body type and you don't have an alternative (except doing another event) like shot put, discus, broad jump..., there are no weight or height classes.

As you (and others here) said, for sports that are not as big as soccer, football... more weight categories (which would still be "unfair" as height has a comparable influence on rowing performance) could end in a podium for everyone.

Agree, it's interesting to read the different point of views

You are right Martin, you not only read it that way, I meant it that way

That's what I love about discussions, getting a different point of view. So where I started out saying I want my own (middleweight) weightclass because I want to see where I stack up against other people "my size" I now share your point of view (probably because of my own cycling example). I realise I will probably never beat you in a sprint distance but in some overall competitions which (e.g.) feature a 500m, a 6k, a 10k and a 2k you and I would be a great match for eachother. So instead of being frustrated that I can't beat you in a sprint or some other guy in a distance event, I should participate in multi-week online competitions with diffirent tests. And ofcourse, just keep enjoying rowing and work on my weaknesses.

I also love HJS's POV on weightclasses. I've been nose deep in the MMA/K-1 scene and the thinks I've seen there in regards to cutting is bizar. Some guys weigh in at 69kg and fight at 77-78kg the next day!...... I participated at -77kg in the national jiujitsu championships haha, but that was a long time ago and with weigh-inn 1hr before the competition so all fair. Can't imagine being 77kg again!

[MartinSH4321]

That's my point, if you're not built for a specific distance/position/... there are alternatives in ergo rowing (and in many other sports). In ergo rowing there are 2 weight classes AND a lot of distances. If you're not built for sprints you can do another distance. I read doubleplay's post (and yours from 22.5.) in that way that it's not fair that "normal" people have to compete with superstrong giants in sprints. I think that's OK, as you said there is a place for people with different body types, longer distances may fit better. A 90kg cycler may win stages, but not the whole tour.

re track and fields: There are a lot of events where you need a very specific body type and you don't have an alternative (except doing another event) like shot put, discus, broad jump..., there are no weight or height classes.

As you (and others here) said, for sports that are not as big as soccer, football... more weight categories (which would still be "unfair" as height has a comparable influence on rowing performance) could end in a podium for everyone.

Agree, it's interesting to read the different point of views

You are right Martin, you not only read it that way, I meant it that way

That's what I love about discussions, getting a different point of view. So where I started out saying I want my own (middleweight) weightclass because I want to see where I stack up against other people "my size" I now share your point of view (probably because of my own cycling example). I realise I will probably never beat you in a sprint distance but in some overall competitions which (e.g.) feature a 500m, a 6k, a 10k and a 2k you and I would be a great match for eachother. So instead of being frustrated that I can't beat you in a sprint or some other guy in a distance event, I should participate in multi-week online competitions with diffirent tests. And ofcourse, just keep enjoying rowing and work on my weaknesses.

I also love HJS's POV on weightclasses. I've been nose deep in the MMA/K-1 scene and the thinks I've seen there in regards to cutting is bizar. Some guys weigh in at 69kg and fight at 77-78kg the next day!...... I participated at -77kg in the national jiujitsu championships haha, but that was a long time ago and with weigh-inn 1hr before the competition so all fair. Can't imagine being 77kg again!

That's one thing I love about this forum, you can discuss with people who have another point of view and it's not ending insulting each other, the vast majority here is respectful and accepts other opinions!

Competitions on different distances are great, the CTC results for example show your strengths and weaknesses without mercy
I'm not sure you'll never beat me in sprints but I'm absolutely sure you'll be faster on the longer distances, we can challenge in middle and mix distances

[johnlvs2run]

For weight lifting competitions, the weigh-in begins 2 hours before the competitor's first event and lasts for 1 hour.
In some competitions, the competitors are required to weigh again immediately at the end of their respective events.
I did not find the rule for the post event weighing, but have observed it happening at various competitions.

[Dangerscouse]

I seem to recall that the FMMC takes into account your age and weight to give you a handicapped score for the challenge.

I keep forgetting to do it as there are so many challenges going on at any one time, so I'm not sure if this is still going on. If it is, maybe that will be a great leveller to see how you compare?

[Carl Watts]

Just get yourself Ergdata and in it you can click the weight adjustment box on the top right in your results if you want to feel good.

No idea how it works but even at 103Kg it makes me way faster when that box goes green

[Rod]

I seem to recall that the FMMC takes into account your age and weight to give you a handicapped score for the challenge.

I keep forgetting to do it as there are so many challenges going on at any one time, so I'm not sure if this is still going on. If it is, maybe that will be a great leveller to see how you compare?

Yes it's still going strong, here's the current table, I'll be doing my entry on Saturday;
https://indoorrowinginfo.com/fmmc/?fbcl ... 7h-ow_jIxM

[Doubleplay]

No, its about the absolute result. Sport is per definition unfair, thats the beauty of it. If we filter out all differences everybody would come out the same.

Sport is per definition is not unfair unless rules make it unfair. There's a reason there are weight classes like in boxing or weight lifting or age groups. The beauty of sports is to level the field and let the best win.

I can understand your point doubleplay, but it's part of the sport that some people are better built for a specific sport than others. I only know 3 sport groups that have weight classes, Martial arts, weight lifting and rowing.
There's a reason that guys like shaquille o'neal are no marathon runners and a 50kg kenian marathon pro is no shot putter. If you would compensate all these differences (not only weight, also height, body proportions) by rules you would get so many categories in some sports that it gets worthless to win one of them and competitions would get inexecutable.

This would end in ridiculous results I think:
- Would someone pay to see a NBA team where the Center can't be taller than 6ft? Would there be 2,3,4 different NBA leagues?
- Would there be 3-5 weight categories at the Tour de France?
- Track and Field Olympics: would this end in 1.000 winners? Or 10.000?

My opinion on this:
For Martial Arts weight classes are a must (for safety).
In weight lifting I don't understand where there are so many weight classes, and all weight restricted classes are far below super heavyweight in prestige. Almost no one cares about the <100kg strongman competitions, only the open class counts.
If there are weight and height classes for all sports like track and field, running, cycling... almost no one would care about anything else than the open class, and there would be much less competitions.

I'm a fast erg sprinter (as a hobby erger) and pretty heavy, but of course I won't have a chance to win against people like Phil Clapp or Brian Shaw, no matter how hard I train, and looking at the C2 rankings most people with a faster 100m time are much taller and heavier than me. That's no problem for me and I don't think another weight class (and some height classes) would grade up my results.

I totally get it and as I said before it would be impractical to have bunch of weight classes in rowing. My point was not to advocate more weight classes but simply pointing out to the fact that everything else being equal( fitness and age) current weight classes which was adapted from Olympic rowing seems unfair and maybe needs to be looked at to level the field little bit more. I'm a fairly new rower but a lifetime athlete who competed at a high level in different sports but never felt at more disadvantage in rowing being at 182 cm and 80kg. As somebody mentioned in cycling there's something called power/weight ratio and when it's dead flat like rowing on a machine it's useless. I love rowing and will keep at it regardless anyway.