Any coaches available?

From the CRASH-B's to an online challenge, discuss the competitive side of erging here.
ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 2:57 am

Bob S. wrote:There seems to be a common misconception that skill at a sport and the ability to coach that sport are related. Nothing could be further from the truth. The coaches that I had at UC Berkeley in the 1940s were living examples of coaches who had not even participated in the sport of rowing — as oarsmen. Russ Nagler and Carroll “Ky” Ebright were each about 5’4” and 120#. I doubt that either of them pulled many strokes except when demonstrating a point to their oarsmen. There was almost no prep school rowing in California, so Nagler, the freshman coach taught almost all of Cal’s oarsmen from scratch. Then Ebright put them together in crews that won Olympic gold for eights in 1928, 1932, and 1948. There were also several years when the UCB varsity eight won the Intercollegiate Rowing Association Regatta at Poughkeepsie. As you might surmise, they had been coxswains and, as such, had learned to judge oarsmen well enough to do a topnotch job of coaching them. Ebright’s own coach, Hiram Conibear, inventor of the rowing stroke that was the most effective from the 1910s through the 1950s, had been a baseball trainer and got into coaching crew at the University of Washington even though, as he himself admitted, he didn’t know the first thing about rowing.

For the story of Conibear, check the following site:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 86,00.html

A contemporary of Nagler and Ebright at Berkeley was coach Clarence M. “Nibs” Price. He was about their size and coached both football (27-17-3) and basketball (449-294).

Bob S.
Sure.

But Pete's case is just the opposite.

The has a special talent for rowing, but he doesn't know how to train, much less coach others how to train.

He omits foundational training entirely from his training program.

You will never row your best if you have no foundation to do so.

He neglects technique.

You will never row your best unless you obsess endlessly about technique.

He avoids all of his weaknesses.

You never will row your best if you avoid your weaknesses.

So he never improves, even though he is in the prime of his life.

He just gets worse.

First thing for Pete, I think, would be to get a boat and learn to row OTW--right now.

He should work on this until he can rate 30 spm for 5K, rowing hard, with good technique, even if he doesn't want to be an OTW rower.

Second thing, I think, would be to get to 5-8% body fat, to see just how light he can be.

Rowing is all about skeletal-motor fitness.

I would guess that Pete is at least 20% body fat right now, perhaps as much as 25%.

40 lbs. of fat!

To row his best, that should be 10-15 lbs.

At 5% body fat, who knows, Pete might be a lightweight.

That would be interesting to see.

Then, to get better, Pete needs to learn to row well.

To learn how to do that, he needs to row a lot at 16 SPI, if he is a heavyweight, 13 SPI, if he is a lightweight, at least a couple of years, so that he can race at 14.5 SP, if he is a heavyweight, 11.5 SPI, if he is a lightweight.

Then he needs to learn how to row efficiently at 10 MPS until he can rate 30-32 spm at 10 MPS for 60min.

Then he could get back to his sharpening, and he would be fast as helll, about 20 seconds faster, I would presume.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 3:36 am

Janice wrote:
ranger wrote: He's only 32.
He's 31.
Ah.

Sorry.

I was _way_ off on that one.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 3:40 am

Yankeerunner wrote:My recollection is that Pete's Plan developed out of his use of the Wolverine Plan, altering it to suit his own likes and dislikes which have turned out to have suit others as well.
Just the issue, Rick.

What is the basis of these "likes and dislikes"?

Perhaps it is just me, but doing whatever you want to is an odd way of going about getting better at rowing, or any sport; and odd in the extreme as a basic principle of coaching.

It is certainly not making Pete any better, either as a rower or a coach.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 3:45 am

Yankeerunner wrote:Pete stepped in to offer the personal touch that others were disinclined to offer at that time
Yes, Pete is _very_ personable.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ausrwr
2k Poster
Posts: 288
Joined: December 18th, 2007, 9:47 pm

Post by ausrwr » September 21st, 2009, 5:04 am

What are your coaching credentials?

Not working with someone physiologically gifted, like yourself, but with people who do not have the same genetic endowment, or indeed the amount of free time that you do.

Oh, none.

Pete's plan is predicated on the sort of thing that can be done in a lunch hour. For people with families, jobs, commitments. For people in whose life rowing is not the most important thing. Or indeed the only thing.

And as for Pete being off the WR? Well, he's also 9 or 10 inches shorter and 25 kilos lighter than Sjiekowski... And where has he said that he has the inclination to do so?

There's a sizeable body of evidence that where athletes are time-poor, there is significantly more to be gained in terms of physiology from intensity than from easy workouts of the same duration. Look up 'Tabata' sessions for an extreme illustration. Bannister went under four minutes for the mile on less than an hour a day...

In terms of your training, no-one trains like you claim to do. Even the GB team athletes, who are the most prolific that I know of, do not train as much as you claim to be training.

Perhaps if you can get someone to do your program (or any version of it) and achieve results from it, you could call yourself a coach and people might listen to you.

As it stands, you're an extremely physiologically gifted athlete who has delivered what one would expect, and is experiencing the normal decline with age. You've also failed to show and to deliver more than any athlete that I can think of.

I'd love to see you make weight, and win CRASH-Bs in a WR time as a lightweight. Weighed in within the rules, and under the microscope.

I do wish you good luck with your WR attempts, I just don't believe you can do them any longer.

User avatar
Rocket Roy
2k Poster
Posts: 338
Joined: October 16th, 2006, 3:59 pm
Location: London

Post by Rocket Roy » September 21st, 2009, 8:49 am

ausrwr wrote:

I'd love to see you make weight, and win CRASH-Bs in a WR time as a lightweight. Weighed in within the rules, and under the microscope.

I do wish you good luck with your WR attempts, I just don't believe you can do them any longer.
That aint gonna happen Al.

Couldn't do it last year, won't do it this year.

And as for getting my "soft WR" well we keep watching and waiting. :lol:

As for coach's I'd recommend PaulS everytime, he took me from a 95 kilo slow hwt to a fast lwt in a year.
Lwt 55+ World Record Holder 6.38.1 (2006-2018)
World champion 2007, 2009, 2014.
2k pb...6.34.7
cycling
25 miles...55;24
10 miles...21.03
Golf best gross 78, 8 over par.

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 12:52 pm

Rocket Roy wrote:
ausrwr wrote:

I'd love to see you make weight, and win CRASH-Bs in a WR time as a lightweight. Weighed in within the rules, and under the microscope.

I do wish you good luck with your WR attempts, I just don't believe you can do them any longer.
That aint gonna happen Al.

Couldn't do it last year, won't do it this year.

And as for getting my "soft WR" well we keep watching and waiting. :lol:

As for coach's I'd recommend PaulS everytime, he took me from a 95 kilo slow hwt to a fast lwt in a year.
You pulled 6:38 before you took on Paul for a coach.

You pulled 6:38 (only once) after you took on Paul for a coach.

Most of the time, you pulled well over 6:40.

You didn't improve a whit.

You did a lot of sweating on your bike, etc., though, which had nothing to do with Paul.

That was good coaching (by you, not Paul).

It's good to lose some weight.

Carrying a lot of extra weight isn't good for your health.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 12:55 pm

auswr wrote:What are your coaching credentials?
I am not a coach, clearly.

Nor is Pete.

We are both just gifted rowers, listening to others who know better about how to bring out our talent.

I have now cobbled together a training plan that blends the basic emphases of the Wolverine Plan, PaulS's 10 MPS, and the Interactive Plan, in that order.

Row at high SPI, low SPI, and then middlin'-SPI.

Gruntin', frothin', racin'

Row effectively (full slide/well), row efficiently (cut slide/10MPS), row fast.

The issues that are underlined by this blend of training plans, I guess, are that you can't row fast if you are ineffective, inefficient, or (in the worst scenario) both; and it is best to learn how to be effective before you learn how to be efficient.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 1:08 pm

auswr wrote:I do wish you good luck with your WR attempts, I just don't believe you can do them any longer.
Well, first things first.

Over the next week, 8 x 500m (3:30 rest), 1:34 @ 37 spm.

That should predict a 6:28.

Then, if I am successful with my 2K trial, I will be ready for hard sharpening.

I am doing sprints every day now (in addition to 3-4 hours of other work--OTW at 24-26 spm, on the erg at 29 spm and 10MPS, and on my bike for general conditioning, toughness, and weight control).

I am now working all of the training bands--every day.

I spend about an hour on each one.

AT, then AN, then UT2, then UT1.

Yes, if I can only do 6:28 now, without even preparing for it with hard sharpening and distance rowing, it is hard to believe that I will be able to pull 6:38 in six months or so, when I am fully trained.

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

ranger
Marathon Poster
Posts: 11629
Joined: March 27th, 2006, 3:27 pm

Post by ranger » September 21st, 2009, 1:19 pm

auswr wrote:In terms of your training, no-one trains like you claim to do. Even the GB team athletes, who are the most prolific that I know of, do not train as much as you claim to be training.
To each his own.

I am used to it, so it doesn't bother me at all.

I am 60 years old; they are 20.

They still have a lot of time to learn.

:lol: :lol:

ranger
Rich Cureton M 72 5'11" 165 lbs. 2K pbs: 6:27.5 (hwt), 6:28 (lwt)

User avatar
Rocket Roy
2k Poster
Posts: 338
Joined: October 16th, 2006, 3:59 pm
Location: London

Post by Rocket Roy » September 21st, 2009, 2:11 pm

ranger wrote:
Rocket Roy wrote:
ausrwr wrote:

I'd love to see you make weight, and win CRASH-Bs in a WR time as a lightweight. Weighed in within the rules, and under the microscope.

I do wish you good luck with your WR attempts, I just don't believe you can do them any longer.
That aint gonna happen Al.

Couldn't do it last year, won't do it this year.

And as for getting my "soft WR" well we keep watching and waiting. :lol:

As for coach's I'd recommend PaulS everytime, he took me from a 95 kilo slow hwt to a fast lwt in a year.
You pulled 6:38 before you took on Paul for a coach.

You pulled 6:38 (only once) after you took on Paul for a coach.

Most of the time, you pulled well over 6:40.

You didn't improve a whit.


ranger
Well I also did a 6.34 once, just before the WR row.

I generally row to win a race not to break any records, after all why bother when I hold the WR?
Lwt 55+ World Record Holder 6.38.1 (2006-2018)
World champion 2007, 2009, 2014.
2k pb...6.34.7
cycling
25 miles...55;24
10 miles...21.03
Golf best gross 78, 8 over par.

User avatar
bloomp
10k Poster
Posts: 1126
Joined: November 28th, 2007, 5:37 pm
Location: Storrs, CT

Post by bloomp » September 21st, 2009, 2:25 pm

Disregard.
Last edited by bloomp on September 24th, 2009, 8:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
24, 166lbs, 5'9
Image

rowmyboat
500m Poster
Posts: 81
Joined: May 3rd, 2006, 11:00 pm
Location: New Zealand

Post by rowmyboat » September 21st, 2009, 6:24 pm

I am very disappointed that you "Ranger" whose blogs I never usually read I might add, has seen fit to critisise Pete Marston. Your comments are objectionable and right out of context. You obviously have no understanding of coaching and coaching methods. Pete 'listens' to his pupils and many others on the threads and always gives constructive advice. What he does as an erger has no bearing on his coaching but on saying that his performances are right up there. Thankfully there are people like him who are willing to impart knowledge for the benefit of others and they in turn have improvements to show for it.
I hope Pete ignores this rubbish you write, I for one am just so cross that you think fit to write it.

User avatar
Chris Brett
500m Poster
Posts: 61
Joined: May 25th, 2006, 10:07 am

Post by Chris Brett » September 22nd, 2009, 6:26 am

Its just a thought but surely at this point someone needs to ask the question -

Is ranger the best wind up merchant in town or just a colossal TW@T?

There is no logic to 90% of what he says and I actually believe the former of the 2 possibilities to be the truth. His maths and science theories just don't stack up at all. No one I have ever met is this much of a dick so don't respond to it. He simply must be taking the proverbial.

I think he is either that one armed Garf bloke, or whatever he was called, from a few years back or he is rowing's answer to Sacha Baron Cohen.

Janice
Paddler
Posts: 5
Joined: March 16th, 2006, 3:59 pm
Location: UK

Post by Janice » September 22nd, 2009, 7:01 am

I'm just here to do the usual bit of defending my man. To clear up some confusion and to right a very misinformed opinion:

Pete has attended two Concept2 training courses: Instructor and Crew Class training. He is an Approved Concept2 Instructor and an Approved Concept2 Crew Class Instructor.

So to say that he has no coaching experience or qualifications is false.

J
MAD Team

Post Reply