StrengthERG suggestions to make it #1 strength machine

[MarcinLipski]

Dear Ladies and Gentlemen,

My name is Marcin. I am an exercise and sports scientist, and I am quite excited about your newest product, the StrengthERG.

Congratulations on executing a great idea with an amazing design! I think a compact, safe and convenient machine that allows for various strength exercises has always been somewhat lacking in quality.

As an exercise and sports scientist for 15 years who has been coaching and researching in Canada, Germany, Spain, Australia and now New Zealand, I would like to suggest 2 minor and 1 major change (addition actually!). I think these small and large tweaks could make this one of the prime if not the very best, mult-exercise strength machines available:

Minor A
While I understand that the focus on the 3 major movements most relevant to rowing makes a lot of sense, and I respect the choice from a Concept2 history perspective, I think one little tweak could enable the StrengthErg users to also train their leg "pulling" muscles like hamstrings and hip flexors.

Note, despite deadlifts and leg pulling exercises, have been shown to be essential for rowing strength (and cycling strength!) for athletes of any level. So much so that basic and fundamental literature for rowing highlights this nowadays. Plus, for the aging population, pulling strength is essential for upright movements, stability and general functional ability and health.

The fix -> Foot straps.

I am a bit confused as to why the footstraps that are very useful for rowing on the RowErg do not exist on the StrengthErg. Simply adding these in the same form (or improved, e.g. a snowboard two-strap+heel strap design for a better hold), allows the StrengthErg user to pull with their hamstrings and hip flexors.

Minor B
The "push"-bar for the chest press requires a design that enables more loading in a lengthened position. While in popular fitness media, this has been dubbed the "loading the stretch" part, it is something rather complex, but very well-researched: eccentric exercise/training.

The fix -> A cambered design.

I won't go into more detail about why this would improve the StrengthErg, as this suggestion also directly provides some support for the Major change that I think you need to implement with the StrengthErg: eccentric muscle actions.


Major 1
I understand that some people have highlighted this, including some rowing influencers. But I would like to emphasize and highlight that this is essential for building and maintaining strength and muscle mass, particularly for athletes, aging and clinical populations.

To keep it short, eccentric muscle actions are essential for muscle growth and strength. Ironically, despite popular belief that "concentric"-only sports like rowing or cycling don't need it, there are huge benefits to performance when using eccentric training for these sports as well. The stimulus of the muscle during the lengthening part of muscle movement is so essential that new studies are showing that doing "partial" repetitions just at length, thus focusing on the eccentric muscle action, yields as much of a result in muscle mass, as full repetitions. That is in itself, insane, but if we consider the significance of eccentric muscle actions, and the benefits of eccentric training (probably the BEST mode of strength training for clinical and elderly populations due to the ability to produce higher forces for less energy, as well as much longer duration of "keeping" the gains), it just makes sense. This is also a particularly essential stimulus across the whole muscle-tendon unit, which includes various types of connective tissue like ligaments (or as popular right now, types of "fascia"). While isometric training is often used for rehab of these connective tissues, eccentric training can be a great stimulus that can help these tissues specifically like no other form of loading.

Thus, without further ado:

The fix -> YoYo-style pullback.

While yes, there are competitors that focus on these types of machines, all of them, every single one of them, suck. No offence to them, but all of them are not even close in design to the StrengthErg. They are clunky, inconvenient, require heaps of attachments to the body, outrageous core and stability strength to even get a proper stimulus, do not allow for upper and lower body strength in one device, plus, and most importantly, they are completely and utterly overpriced. I do not like to write or claim the "trust me bro" attitude, but I have worked with all of these device variations with athletes, the general population, as well as various populations, and the matter of inconvenience and annoyance of using them is massive. At the German Sports University in Cologne, we even had one of the original Swedish designs (ironically, a rower) that we were testing and providing feedback for to go up to the ISS. One of the major feedback points we provided: It need a stable seat so that I can put my body weight against it. This was about 13 years ago - and here you have fixed it with the StrengthErg!

I understand that this could be somewhat of a bigger change to the design of your flywheel, but I am sure that you can figure it out. I am imagining something super simple that would even allow to turn the YoYo off, if someone (for whatever reason) - for example a "pull-out" mechanism in the middle of the flywheel axle that will either enable or disable the eccentric YoYo. Admittely, I have little engineering knowledge outside the human body, thus I cannot provide any ideas here. But the original creators of this design (the ones who made the ISS prototype we used) were able to figure it out in a lightweight design (See nHance machines). I am sure your team at Concept2 can quickly manage a fix for the StrengthErg! To be honest, if you don't I am 90% sure most of the companies mentioned above, are already going to be working on copying your design into their device-type.

Another problem with the other contenders is that they are simply wrong in their marketing and training advice. They mostly focus on the verbiage of "overload", which means that you can produce higher forces during eccentric muscle actions than concentric ones. If eccentric training is performed at these high loads, it has massive benefits, and can also be an amazing tool for various types of recovery and rehabilitation. Unfortunately, this is impossible with a flywheel/yo-yo design. Due to the laws of thermodynamics, if you are putting in a certain amount of work/force into the flywheel, and it pulls you back, it cannot pull you back "more" than you have put it. While this sounds like it is irrelevant, it is quite important. Because of this error, a lot of the training designs/protocols provided and used in practice are based around "overload", which it is not. Thus, the end-user is missing out on the "right" training mode.

This leads me to my personal and professional expertise in eccentric training across all intensities, and how the StrengthErg can stand out if such a YoYo function that enables eccentric training is implemented. While the wider coaching world is obsessed with the aforementioned "overload" with eccentric training, it has been shown over and over and over and over again that low-intensity eccentric training (hell, even downstairs walking beats upstairs walking!) is as effective. I believe that the StrengthErg, with its convenient, comfortable and safe design, in combination with the ability to measure force outputs, can become the very best low-intensity eccentric training machine available.


Summary

Adding these features would make the StrengthErg the ultimate machine "push-pull" strength machine. Now, into the major change that is, from my humble perspective as a 2-decade user of Concept2 machines and strength & conditioning/sports science practitioner of 15 years, essential to make this useful for athletes, aging, general and clinical populations.

I would love to have a chat with you and your team about implementing these. I understand and respect if you are not interested in this, but I honestly believe that it would make the StrengthErg a contender for the "most wanted" multi-functional strength device across so many settings!

Without being arrogant, boasting, or similar, but I have spent most of my life coaching various populations, aging, clinical, and athletic (beginners to elite), as well as a lot in exercise science laboratories, and with most of my commitment to eccentric training, and I believe that I can provide tremendous value to this and all future users of the StrengthErg.

Thank you, and best regards from New Zealand,
Marcin

P.S. Yes, I am fully aware that the references and data I have provided are limited. There is only so much I can do in a quick message, especially when I get excited about the opportunity with this machine. I am more than happy to point toward mountains of data and prove for eccentric muscle actions and their absolute dominant contribution to muscle growth and strength.

P.S.2 I just realised I am only allowed 10 URLs. Sorry, less references.

[JaapvanE]

Major 1
I understand that some people have highlighted this, including some rowing influencers. But I would like to emphasize and highlight that this is essential for building and maintaining strength and muscle mass, particularly for athletes, aging and clinical populations.

To keep it short, eccentric muscle actions are essential for muscle growth and strength. Ironically, despite popular belief that "concentric"-only sports like rowing or cycling don't need it, there are huge benefits to performance when using eccentric training for these sports as well. The stimulus of the muscle during the lengthening part of muscle movement is so essential that new studies are showing that doing "partial" repetitions just at length, thus focusing on the eccentric muscle action, yields as much of a result in muscle mass, as full repetitions. That is in itself, insane, but if we consider the significance of eccentric muscle actions, and the benefits of eccentric training (probably the BEST mode of strength training for clinical and elderly populations due to the ability to produce higher forces for less energy, as well as much longer duration of "keeping" the gains), it just makes sense. This is also a particularly essential stimulus across the whole muscle-tendon unit, which includes various types of connective tissue like ligaments (or as popular right now, types of "fascia"). While isometric training is often used for rehab of these connective tissues, eccentric training can be a great stimulus that can help these tissues specifically like no other form of loading.

Thus, without further ado:

The fix -> YoYo-style pullback.

While yes, there are competitors that focus on these types of machines, all of them, every single one of them, suck. No offence to them, but all of them are not even close in design to the StrengthErg. They are clunky, inconvenient, require heaps of attachments to the body, outrageous core and stability strength to even get a proper stimulus, do not allow for upper and lower body strength in one device, plus, and most importantly, they are completely and utterly overpriced. I do not like to write or claim the "trust me bro" attitude, but I have worked with all of these device variations with athletes, the general population, as well as various populations, and the matter of inconvenience and annoyance of using them is massive. At the German Sports University in Cologne, we even had one of the original Swedish designs (ironically, a rower) that we were testing and providing feedback for to go up to the ISS. One of the major feedback points we provided: It need a stable seat so that I can put my body weight against it. This was about 13 years ago - and here you have fixed it with the StrengthErg!

I understand that this could be somewhat of a bigger change to the design of your flywheel, but I am sure that you can figure it out. I am imagining something super simple that would even allow to turn the YoYo off, if someone (for whatever reason) - for example a "pull-out" mechanism in the middle of the flywheel axle that will either enable or disable the eccentric YoYo. Admittely, I have little engineering knowledge outside the human body, thus I cannot provide any ideas here. But the original creators of this design (the ones who made the ISS prototype we used) were able to figure it out in a lightweight design (See nHance machines). I am sure your team at Concept2 can quickly manage a fix for the StrengthErg! To be honest, if you don't I am 90% sure most of the companies mentioned above, are already going to be working on copying your design into their device-type.

I don't know these machines you mention, but is it even mechanically possible to create an eccentric load? I don't think so, as the flywheel concept in essence resists moving in one direction, but can't provide a continuous force when let go (as magnetic and gravity based machines can). In part this is a benefit as it provides user safety: this machine will not crush you in training. But I'm not convinced this is physically possible.

[gvcormac]

Interesting points, though I'm sure Concept 2 is well into production tooling, so unlikely to make substantive changes.

Here's some mild counterpoint:

1. Hamstring requires heel not forefoot pull. You can do this without straps. I think the larger problem is that there's no resistance against forward seat motion.

2. I'm not convinced about the chest pad thing. I discarded the one on my exercise bench. For normal humans, I think the isometric stability of the legs and back should provide ample support.

3. The paper https://sportrxiv.org/index.php/server/ ... ew/455/959 doesn't compare concentric-only with concentric-eccentric exercise. It compares partial and full concentric-eccentric, and finds no substantial difference. I'm still in the dark as to whether eccentric is necessary, and whether the increased concentric (max at every pull) compensates for lack of eccentric. I'm interested in strength. Hypertrophy for the sake of bulking, no.

[Slidewinder]

footstraps... Simply adding these allows the StrengthErg user to pull with their hamstrings and hip flexors.

YoYo-style pull back... Adding these features would make the StrengthErg the ultimate machine "push-pull" strength machine.

Simply adding footstraps to the StrengthErg would not enable a pulling exercise for the legs. The sliding footrests are not coupled to the flywheel on the return.

I am familiar with the original YoYo technology. I recalled it when the poster, JaapvanE, wrote in another thread that, "It is impossible to provide eccentric load other than by an active netto force (gravity or electric)." I immediately thought of a spring or elastic - concentric and eccentric force. Then I also remembered the YoYo technology. Of course it is possible to provide eccentric loading with a flywheel. A couple of companies (Exxentric, and nhance) have developed exercise equipment utilizing the YoYo technology. The #211 Multi-gym, and the #218 Seated Pro Crew Rower, by nhance, are notable (some videos on YouTube).
I agree with you that the StrengthErg is flawed. But let's not pretend that it needs just a couple of "tweaks" to put it right. What you are proposing is a complete tear down and start from scratch. Concept 2 is not listening to you or anyone else. They have their hands over their ears to block out the sounds of the critics. They are determined to bring the StrengthErg to market, its uni-directional loading unchanged. All we can do is stand by and wait for the inevitable crash.

[Tsnor]

... I am an exercise and sports scientist, and I am quite excited about your newest product, the StrengthERG.

Interesting discussion.

To get to concept2 send your original post to info@concept2.com ask them to forward to product engineering and brand management. Concept2 is quite responsive, but does not monitor this forum.

[Slidewinder]

... I am an exercise and sports scientist, and I am quite excited about your newest product, the StrengthERG.

Interesting discussion.

To get to concept2 send your original post to info@concept2.com ask them to forward to product engineering and brand management. Concept2 is quite responsive, but does not monitor this forum.

Do you think there is a chance Concept 2 will accept the OP's suggestions?
Do you think C2 will announce that the roll-out of the StrengthErg is being delayed for an unspecified time because the revealed design has been scrapped and the entire unit is being re-designed around YoYo flywheel technology?

[Tsnor]

... I am an exercise and sports scientist, and I am quite excited about your newest product, the StrengthERG.

Interesting discussion.

To get to concept2 send your original post to info@concept2.com ask them to forward to product engineering and brand management. Concept2 is quite responsive, but does not monitor this forum.

Do you think there is a chance Concept 2 will accept the OP's suggestions?
Do you think C2 will announce that the roll-out of the StrengthErg is being delayed for an unspecified time because the revealed design has been scrapped and the entire unit is being re-designed around YoYo flywheel technology?

You have some great posts. And then ones like this.

ALL products go through development cycles. YOU KNOW THIS.

Use your skills to be positive, move the ball forward, catalyze for good. The list of possible good outcomes from a post like this <"design has been scrapped and the entire unit is being re-designed"> is really short.

[Slidewinder]

The list of possible good outcomes from a post like this <"design has been scrapped and the entire unit is being re-designed"> is really short.

It would be a good outcome if the OP contacted Concept 2, and Concept 2 listens, and as a consequence Concept 2 re-designs the StrengthErg. I hope it happens, but I am realistic. My hope is small. For forty years the founders of C2 have been called innovative geniuses. The endless praise must surely affect one's self-image. Could it not result in an unwillingness to accept criticism, the over-valuation of one's own ideas, and a reluctance to acknowledge the merit of the ideas of others?

[DghSpanishWelsh]

The inability to train hamstrings is a big issue for me.

If Concept 2 solve that, I'm in the market for a StrengthERG.

If they don't, I'm probably not.

[Ombrax]

Guys, the thing has been designed and is in production. A number of the proposed changes would take things back to square one and require a complete redesign. Yes, they might tweak some details as the production continues, but they aren't going to scrap the design and start over. Let's give C2 credit and assume that they put some thought into what the market was interested in and what they could build and sell at a given price point to meet that demand. What they created isn't the perfect strength tool for you? Well, that's life.

[DghSpanishWelsh]

Guys, the thing has been designed and is in production. A number of the proposed changes would take things back to square one and require a complete redesign. Yes, they might tweak some details as the production continues, but they aren't going to scrap the design and start over. Let's give C2 credit and assume that they put some thought into what the market was interested in and what they could build and sell at a given price point to meet that demand. What they created isn't the perfect strength tool for you? Well, that's life.

it's called feedback from the customer base. Sensible businesses value it.

[Ombrax]

it's called feedback from the customer base. Sensible businesses value it.

True, and I don't disagree, but it has to be within reason.

[gvcormac]

A man and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?”

So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.”

So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn't gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.”

Well the Man didn't know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passersby began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren't you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor Donkey of yours—you and your hulking son?”

The man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the Donkey's feet to it, and raised the pole and the Donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together, he was drowned.

“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them:

“Please all, and you will please none.”

[Ombrax]

I was hoping the donkey would break free and run off into the wilderness to join its brethren...

[Dave Neve]

A man and his son were once going with their Donkey to market. As they were walking along by its side a countryman passed them and said: “You fools, what is a Donkey for but to ride upon?”

So the Man put the Boy on the Donkey and they went on their way. But soon they passed a group of men, one of whom said: “See that lazy youngster, he lets his father walk while he rides.”

So the Man ordered his Boy to get off, and got on himself. But they hadn't gone far when they passed two women, one of whom said to the other: “Shame on that lazy lout to let his poor little son trudge along.”

Well the Man didn't know what to do, but at last he took his Boy up before him on the Donkey. By this time they had come to the town, and the passersby began to jeer and point at them. The Man stopped and asked what they were scoffing at. The men said: “Aren't you ashamed of yourself for overloading that poor Donkey of yours—you and your hulking son?”

The man and Boy got off and tried to think what to do. They thought and they thought, till at last they cut down a pole, tied the Donkey's feet to it, and raised the pole and the Donkey to their shoulders. They went along amid the laughter of all who met them till they came to Market Bridge, when the Donkey, getting one of his feet loose, kicked out and caused the Boy to drop his end of the pole. In the struggle the Donkey fell over the bridge, and his fore-feet being tied together, he was drowned.

“That will teach you,” said an old man who had followed them:

“Please all, and you will please none.”

This is true too and you are absolutely right to point it out.

But I've worked out in hundreds of gyms, and I've never come across the Concept Dyno

https://www.concept2.com/support/dyno?s ... 66jE5Gh_Wx

which is the predecessor of the StrengthErg.

I suppose private individuals might buy it for home use to save space or to avoid having heavy weights lying around but I'm doubtful I'll ever get to see the StrengthErg in a gym to try out for myself.

We now have to wait and see.