Concept 2 Strength Erg

[JaapvanE]

Interesting approach, it comes with and without PM5. When it is without, it can use ErgData as a screen...

Cough cough ...

see

The new StrengthErg has this option, but I'm not sure it can be easily translated to a RowErg etc., as the data intensity of the RowErg and SkiErg is much higher and key functions like the forcecurve are at odds with the minimum BLE update interval of 20ms (iPhone), introducing a lag in updates. RP3 seems to manage it, but I don't know how data-intensive their machine is.

They might go the same route for the rowErg, but it is a tricky path. A sister project of OpenRowingMonitor uses an ESP32, which is extremely cheap and energy efficient. But it can't run the webserver we use. So we use a similar approach with an app and BLE. It works, but introduces a lot of complexity and is difficult to get stable. In practice, force curves can't be drawn live yet, as the data lags too much. As said in the quote, RP3 managed to do it, but we don't know about their data intensity.

[jcross485]

You even don't need a set of dumbells, you only need your body and something to hang from and can get a much better workout with more variety in.
The strength erg is nothing for me, too limited in its possibilities at all (saying that without trying it).

You and I might be two of the more "strength minded" folks here, so I was interested in your thoughts.

I personally see this as a tool where people might be able to work on max concentric strength and power expression, albeit in very limited planes, with very little risk for injury because of the lack of an eccentric component. Very similar to heavy sled work. It seems neat in that it's a different way to measure output - instead of weight x reps x sets, and for those lucky enough to have a bar speed device, velocity, I would presume this measures power output in watts. That would be interesting to see.

But to me, it's just another tool we might have at our disposal and not the be all / end all for strength. I agree with you - you can actually get decently strong with pull-ups, push-ups, dips, bodyweight/air squats, walking lunges, etc., and if you add a weighted vest like I do, it gets exponentially more difficult quickly. I use other things when I am home and have access to them but the aforementioned I can pretty well do anywhere, seeing as I travel a lot.

If I come across one, I would be very much interested in trying it, but I am not going to run out and add one to my garage.

[HornetMaX]

They might go the same route for the rowErg, but it is a tricky path. A sister project of OpenRowingMonitor uses an ESP32, which is extremely cheap and energy efficient. But it can't run the webserver we use. So we use a similar approach with an app and BLE. It works, but introduces a lot of complexity and is difficult to get stable. In practice, force curves can't be drawn live yet, as the data lags too much. As said in the quote, RP3 managed to do it, but we don't know about their data intensity.

Just curious, what do you mean with "lags too much" ?

I'm not sure it really needs to be real-time (or close to). The times I look at it (rarely, to be honest) I "read" it at the end of the stroke, not really "during the stroke". I think RP even shows some sort of "moving average" of the last N strokes.

[JaapvanE]

Just curious, what do you mean with "lags too much" ?

A key limitation is the number of messages you can send to any bluetooth device at the time. BLE messages are typically short, but can't come too often. For example, the iPhone limits its use to 20ms between messages, to prevent flooding. So timing messages is a thing. At the end of the drive and recovery you typically get some data updates from key metrics (i.e. distance, time, etc..), and fitting in a force curve is quite challenging. AFAIK, the PM5 only sends 28 datapoints, but that still is several messages. So on the back of a napkin, you quickly run into delays of 1/4 to 1/2 seconds before it is complete (at the end of a drive, a lot of metrics get recalculated, which need to be sent). In my experience, that is too slow as you typically look at the force curve at the finish, not halfway the slide.

They could send these data-elements as soon as they calculate them, but that implies that you can't do server side bucketing dynamically (which could cut your datavolume in half easily). It is a field with tough choices, and C2 can make some drastic decisions to make it happen, but people find it hard to let go of how things work now.

I'm not sure it really needs to be real-time (or close to). The times I look at it (rarely, to be honest) I "read" it at the end of the stroke, not really "during the stroke". I think RP even shows some sort of "moving average" of the last N strokes.

I don't know how RP3 works internally (or the PM5 for that matter). I have the impression it is the last stroke. They even do a "ghost projection" of your previous stroke below your current stroke. One of the key metrics is stroke-to-stroke consistency (standard deviation of the peak placement) which of course becomes useless when averaging strokes.

[HornetMaX]

Hmm, maybe worth to think about dropping BLE for vanilla B ?

I see RP3 can use USB to connect the table so yeah, maybe they just don't have the problem.
And yes, it seems to show current stroke + last stroke (or + target curve).

[KeithT]

I am very curious but also very skeptical. Knowing all I can do with some dumbells and a barbell or body-weight - just not sure what it would offer. I will definitely check it out when I get a chance.

[Sakly]

You even don't need a set of dumbells, you only need your body and something to hang from and can get a much better workout with more variety in.
The strength erg is nothing for me, too limited in its possibilities at all (saying that without trying it).

You and I might be two of the more "strength minded" folks here, so I was interested in your thoughts.

I personally see this as a tool where people might be able to work on max concentric strength and power expression, albeit in very limited planes, with very little risk for injury because of the lack of an eccentric component. Very similar to heavy sled work. It seems neat in that it's a different way to measure output - instead of weight x reps x sets, and for those lucky enough to have a bar speed device, velocity, I would presume this measures power output in watts. That would be interesting to see.

But to me, it's just another tool we might have at our disposal and not the be all / end all for strength. I agree with you - you can actually get decently strong with pull-ups, push-ups, dips, bodyweight/air squats, walking lunges, etc., and if you add a weighted vest like I do, it gets exponentially more difficult quickly. I use other things when I am home and have access to them but the aforementioned I can pretty well do anywhere, seeing as I travel a lot.

If I come across one, I would be very much interested in trying it, but I am not going to run out and add one to my garage.

The only advantage I see, you probably can apply less force on hard parts and can increase force in easier parts of the movement, so the force curve applied can be different than compared to moving a weight. For me this doesn't weigh out the other aspects of training I'm missing here.
A full body bodyweight workout without any equipment (other than a bar to hang from and probably a towel) will outperform this machine for a healthy individual. I think we are not talking about rehab training using this machine, but even then I'm not convinced it has huge benefits.

[yvvv]

I’m new here, just bought a RowErg that should be delivered today (yeah!). I’m 60 years old, trail running 3-4 times/week (so in good shape) but realizing that time has come to start shifting to lower impact activities (thus the rower). Perhaps it’s a stupid question, but since rowing is supposed to be a full body workout, what would/could be the benefit of getting something like the StrengthErg (when available) in addition to a RowErg?

[gvcormac]

I’m new here, just bought a RowErg that should be delivered today (yeah!). I’m 60 years old, trail running 3-4 times/week (so in good shape) but realizing that time has come to start shifting to lower impact activities (thus the rower). Perhaps it’s a stupid question, but since rowing is supposed to be a full body workout, what would/could be the benefit of getting something like the StrengthErg (when available) in addition to a RowErg?

RowErg provides mainly cardiovascular benefit. You don't generate enough force to gain strength from rowing.

Are you giving up running? I don't think that's necessary. Within reason, the impact is good for your bones and balance.

[yvvv]

I’m new here, just bought a RowErg that should be delivered today (yeah!). I’m 60 years old, trail running 3-4 times/week (so in good shape) but realizing that time has come to start shifting to lower impact activities (thus the rower). Perhaps it’s a stupid question, but since rowing is supposed to be a full body workout, what would/could be the benefit of getting something like the StrengthErg (when available) in addition to a RowErg?

RowErg provides mainly cardiovascular benefit. You don't generate enough force to gain strength from rowing.

Are you giving up running? I don't think that's necessary. Within reason, the impact is good for your bones and balance.

Thanks I’ll probably reach the same conclusion (not generating enough force from rowing) by myself when I’ll start using the RowErg . And have no worry, I’m not giving up on running, quite the contrary, but my body starts telling me perhaps I need to diversify my training if I want to be able to keep running on the long term

[jcross485]

The only advantage I see, you probably can apply less force on hard parts and can increase force in easier parts of the movement, so the force curve applied can be different than compared to moving a weight. For me this doesn't weigh out the other aspects of training I'm missing here.
A full body bodyweight workout without any equipment (other than a bar to hang from and probably a towel) will outperform this machine for a healthy individual. I think we are not talking about rehab training using this machine, but even then I'm not convinced it has huge benefits.

I caught a podcast with a C2 employee on YouTube this morning while doing a bit of aerobic work and what they were talking about did make quite a bit of sense to me. I'm not going to run out and pre-order or buy one but if I come across one at some point, I'll definitely be giving it a try. Where I could see it being beneficial to my home gym is more so with my wife who does not like to train (at all) but has gotten into rowing a bit as it's been a nice little addition to her health and fitness.

[Sakly]

The only advantage I see, you probably can apply less force on hard parts and can increase force in easier parts of the movement, so the force curve applied can be different than compared to moving a weight. For me this doesn't weigh out the other aspects of training I'm missing here.
A full body bodyweight workout without any equipment (other than a bar to hang from and probably a towel) will outperform this machine for a healthy individual. I think we are not talking about rehab training using this machine, but even then I'm not convinced it has huge benefits.

I caught a podcast with a C2 employee on YouTube this morning while doing a bit of aerobic work and what they were talking about did make quite a bit of sense to me. I'm not going to run out and pre-order or buy one but if I come across one at some point, I'll definitely be giving it a try. Where I could see it being beneficial to my home gym is more so with my wife who does not like to train (at all) but has gotten into rowing a bit as it's been a nice little addition to her health and fitness.

You have a link to that podcast? Interested in getting their point.
Don't want to bash on this thing, every machine has it's advantage over other stuff or it's special use case, so will this machine have one as well.
I am a big advocate of bodyweight training, it has the best carry over to daily activities, mobility, movement quality. Strength work, like weighted squats, deadlifts and other machine or barbell stuff are nice to build a higher level of strength, but have much less useful carry over for daily life, so I would prefer bodyweight training over other stuff every time.

[jcross485]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q

https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q

Let me know if any of those links work for you.

I really can't disagree with the BW stuff. While mine isn't true BW as I'm adding a weighted vest in most cases, I really feel as though, given my time away from an erg, I'm in the process of building a very, very good foundation upon which I can build some quality erg scores / times (compared to what I have achieved thus far) once I get back home and can specify or peak for rowing.

[Sakly]

[youtube]https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q

https://youtu.be/xQ50Ru5ZOQY?si=A-NkUdVPLfV__s8Q

Let me know if any of those links work for you.

I really can't disagree with the BW stuff. While mine isn't true BW as I'm adding a weighted vest in most cases, I really feel as though, given my time away from an erg, I'm in the process of building a very, very good foundation upon which I can build some quality erg scores / times (compared to what I have achieved thus far) once I get back home and can specify or peak for rowing.

Thanks for the link, will give it a go today evening, hopefully.
I consider weight vest training also to be "true" bodyweight, as for me BW training is not related to the true bodyweight alone, but you need to move your body through space. If there's a weight vest or not, your body does not care about.
Regarding your last aspect, building a good foundation: when I first got on my erg, I could do a 1:56/500m half marathon and a <1:45/500m 2k, so this shows it gives a good foundation. Not only in terms of strength and stamina, also in adaptation of new/unknown movements like rowing.