Concept2 Forum

Just a question from the peanut gallery.

I look forward to rowing the Holiday Challenge each year as a start to the indoor rowing season.

How can some folks put up extremely high meters almost from the start of the Challenge?

5,000,000 meters seems incredible to me. Also wondering how Concept 2 deals with the charitable match for the folks submitting this data?

Please enlighten me.

Thanks,

Bob

It's only 162000 metres per day.

Citroen wrote: ↑

December 7th, 2023, 8:29 am

It's only 162000 metres per day.

Hahahaha

Concept 2 refuses to enable verified only rows and still has the manual entry where you can enter anything you feel like you might have rowed because you were feeling good that month.

Its been 20 years exactly now since the PM3 with the verification code was released.

There should be completely separate Challenges for people that want a verified result. Trust me the full results will look totally different.

There should be at least a couple of Challenges a year now for "ErgData only" users.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

December 7th, 2023, 3:19 pm

Concept 2 refuses to enable verified only rows and still has the manual entry where you can enter anything you feel like you might have rowed because you were feeling good that month.

There should be at least a couple of Challenges a year now for "ErgData only" users.

I agree with this idea. For one, only allowing results that have been submitted electronically. Aside from ErgData, I would also have C2 validate/accept the 3rd party apps that also send results via the API to the Logbook as that requires a burden of effort and greatly improves the accuracy of the inputs vs manual. They already have to approve these API integrations.

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

December 7th, 2023, 3:19 pm

There should be at least a couple of Challenges a year now for "ErgData only" users.

That would exclude a growing number of people that row with other apps (like EXR, RowPro) that do submit data via the API. Most need to do this as the PM5 only allows one BT connection, and thus using that app excludes the use of ErgData.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 3:43 am

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

December 7th, 2023, 3:19 pm

There should be at least a couple of Challenges a year now for "ErgData only" users.

That would exclude a growing number of people that row with other apps (like EXR, RowPro) that do submit data via the API. Most need to do this as the PM5 only allows one BT connection, and thus using that app excludes the use of ErgData.

These people should only be allowed to add meters with the validation code, I see no problem with it.

I too would like only verified results to count for anything entered for public comparison, but I don't think it will ever happen because C2 prioritise inclusivity over everything else. They seem convinced that the level of errors and abuses are sufficiently low for them not to effectively "ban" the legacy equipment users - fair enough, its their game. Nevertheless, as Carl has advocated for many years, having the verification rule introduced for just some of the challenges would provide an interesting comparison. Also interesting that C2 did feel the need to go even further to maintain the validity of the 2k records by making them race only. I know of a couple of 2k records well broken by verified rows that don't count as they were done outside of a race.

All,

Just a follow up question.

I've been a rowerg owner/user since 2014 and have been slowly accumulating meters every season since. Lifetime erg meters is about 6,800,000.

Given that apparently some folks can "game" the C2 logbook by adding meters manually, can a cheater increase their lifetime meters to gain access to the prizes C2 offers at million meter milestones?

I intend to keep going honestly, but would like to know if this is possible.

Thanks,
Bob

Sadly yes. You can enter any numbers you want manually and once loaded into the log they are automatically added to your lifetime meters.

MPx wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 11:32 am

Sadly yes. You can enter any numbers you want manually and once loaded into the log they are automatically added to your lifetime meters.

But there are humans involved in processing this data on C2's side. It would very easy for them to stop the sending process in its tracks.

And I assume that when it happens too often, C2 will tighten the rules.

MPx wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 4:48 am

I too would like only verified results to count for anything entered for public comparison, but I don't think it will ever happen because C2 prioritise inclusivity over everything else.

Not sure about "Inclusivity", I quit doing the challenges because the results are always dodgy.

After monitoring them once you had to drop to like 16th place before you found a verified result. The verified result was just a fraction of the top result in total meters actually rowed. Cannot remember the event but she took top spot as far as I was concerned.

I don't see anything wrong with verified only challenges, apart from the fact they will make the non verified challenges look like a joke. This would give a different set of people who are probably not bothering or those that are can swap over to it.

Personally I think with the ErgData logbook being so easy to use and synchronise the the online logbook, this format would just eventually take over and become the default anyway for the challenges.

Concept 2 could easily even put in a "Filter" and just put all verified rowers on a separate table. The problem is that a verified result instantly invalidates everyone else result that is not verified.

The "But I only have a PM2 monitor" excuse is starting to wear a bit thin, that monitor ceased production now 20 years ago, its time that a couple of users stopped holding back everyone else.

The manual entry setup for the meters needs to go, time to move on. If you love the challenges so much its time to buy a new monitor, I mean if you are doing a million meters a week its not like you are not using it 12 hours a day right ?

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 3:02 pm

The "But I only have a PM2 monitor" excuse is starting to wear a bit thin, that monitor ceased production now 20 years ago, its time that a couple of users stopped holding back everyone else.

The PM3 isn't much better. In theory, you can connect with a cable but in a gym nobody would. People typically note down the meters, but they won't connect as they don't have the proper cable and it is socially awkward to take cables alond and plug them in a starnge device. And some PM3's wont even work then.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 3:24 pm

Carl Watts wrote: ↑

December 8th, 2023, 3:02 pm

The "But I only have a PM2 monitor" excuse is starting to wear a bit thin, that monitor ceased production now 20 years ago, its time that a couple of users stopped holding back everyone else.

The PM3 isn't much better. In theory, you can connect with a cable but in a gym nobody would. People typically note down the meters, but they won't connect as they don't have the proper cable and it is socially awkward to take cables alond and plug them in a starnge device. And some PM3's wont even work then.

You press a few buttons and the PM3 puts out a verification code.

If you are that keen on entering a verified Challenge then you will have to also enter the code.

I'm not going to go into depth but I pushed the ability to fake a verified result a while back and its pretty difficult to do. If you want a pretty much 100% verified result then the PM5 with ErgData is the the way to go. You simply choose what you want at the start of a challenge and go with it and there can be a column that shows the entry type be it ErgData, Verification code, C2 Utilty, whatever but the pure manual entry system with no code is bullshit.

I'm finally on board with ErgData. It's GREAT. I'm sorry to have been such a Luddite!

Even BED, I've long wondered why someone would fudge their meters. For the big prize money? But, of course, some do. Curious.

But yeah, having a level playing field is preferable. Even as a non-competitive rower, I like to see where I stand with confidence in the numbers. It can be motivating.

While C2 is at it, I wish I could see rowerg vs bikerg meters for the Holiday Challenge ... just so I know where I stand with fellow rowergers.