Concept2 Forum

Some of y'all might have seen other posts of mine. In summary, I was morbidy obese for a long time, but started erging and stopped snacking on junk food at night, and have lost 70+ pounds in the last 7 months (6'3" 39yo male, 261>188 lbs). I was rowing about 5-6x/week (~45 minute steady pieces), but in the last few months have dropped to about 3 rows a week, running (30-35 minutes) 1-2x/week, and lifting 1-2x week (adding up to about 6 days/wk exercise).

I have a body fat scale, and if I do the math it looks like I've been pretty good at shedding only fat. My lean body weight (total weight * (1-body fat %)) hasn't dropped. Then again, it hasn't climbed either, and that's where I need the advice.

Judging from the scale and the look in the mirror, I could stand to lose about 10-15 lbs of fat still, which I'm sure I could do since I'm still losing about 1 lb/wk. But, that would make me look totally scrawny unless I could add about 5-10 lb of muscle mass. How do I do this? (let's say I want no weight change, but want to swap 10 lbs of fat for muscle).

My first assumption is that since on my current exercise/diet I'm losing 1 lb/wk, that's a daily deficit of 500 calories. So, if I take in 500 calories/day more, with no other changes, my weight should level out. But I'm scared to get a set-back. How do I know that I'll continue to lose fat and start muscle growth, instead of just stagnating at the composition that I am now? How do I exercise to burn off fat (which the erg has done great) but add muscle (which I haven't done at all) simultaneously? Have I had no muscle gains simply because I've been in calorie deficit all along? Do I need to go to a calorie surplus (i.e. add 800-1000 calories a day) to get muscle gain, and then how do I know I won't put on fat?

(p.s. my %BF, by scale and some other calculators, is about 20-22%. I'm thinking 15% is reasonable)

Help??

Tom Bartman

well done so far - i think you have done really well.

i can only my advice from the view of a competitive rower.

i think that if you want to gain more muscle, pump more iron. i would do it 3 times a week with the classic 4 sets of 10 routine.

and quite simply if you want to lose fat move more and eat less. which sounds like you are doing now. from what i have read the optimal weight loss is half a kilo or around 2lbs a week. so there could be some fine tuning there.

if you find yourself plateauing change your exercises. also play around with the volume and intensity. your body adapts so keep changing.

you will gain lean muscle by exercising. some increase in muscle size is due to the amount of blood that has been pumped to them.

keep up the good work and all the best.

robhen wrote:from what i have read the optimal weight loss is half a kilo or around 2lbs a week. so there could be some fine tuning there.

Tom - half a kilo is about 1 lb, not 2, so you are on track there. (2.2 lbs/1 kg)

Thanks so far. I guess what I'm hung up about mentally is that losing fat is catabolic, but growing muscle is anabolic. I know that to lose fat, you need to take in fewer calories than you burn, but I've read that you need to take in additional calories above maintenance needs to produce new muscle fibers. So, is it even possible to do both at the same time, or do I have to take turns (focus on negative calorie balance and anaerobic activity to shed fat one month, then switch to positive calorie balance combined with weight lifting to add muscle size the next month)?

6' 3" @ 188# sounds very thin to me. If you want to gain muscle mass and are not an elite specimen of the human race, you will have to eat more, lift heavy weights infrequently, sleep a lot, and move little.

Rowing and gaining muscle mass are probably at odds for most people, unless they are freaks of nature or have been sedentary for a long period of time. Brief, infrequent, heavy lifting is how you build limit strength and mass. Squats and deadlifts are the order of the day with an upper body pull or push.

Congratulations on the weight loss. That is an incredible amount. Perhaps you could go manorexic and become a lwt rower.

If you are serious about gaining mass again(!) and therefore OK with dropping most of the rowing and running, I can post a few links you might find helpful.

Good luck!

Jason

Just remember that muscle weighs more than fat. I'm 6ft 165, so 6'3" 188 is still relatively thin. To put more weight on, you will have to do more weights. Maybe instead of running / rowing 2-3 times a week, try lifting every other day. For example, lift Monday, Wednesday and Friday, and you could erg / run on Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday (Sunday is a rest day). Also, to gain muscle mass you will probably need to take in more protein.

Consumer reports did a review of BF scales a few years ago, and the Tunturi overestimated BF by 3% for men and 8% for women, so the measurements aren't directly comparable to tables, but they should be valid without conversion when compared against each other.

Also, since the electrical impulse goes through the feet, it measures disproportionately lower-body fat (according to a nurse practitioner for my endocrinologist).

Agree with Robhen.

Good Luck,

Angela

your story sounds much like mine, i dropped 80lbs a couple years ago and proceeded to put on 30 lbs of muscle after. Your right when you guess that putting on muscle cannot be done at the same time as loosing weight. The two are completely at odds. When you want to go into a gain cycle you need to make sure you are getting a ton of food. And this has to be really good healthy food as there will be such a high quantity. You want to intake about 20-30 grams of protein every 2-3 hours. The ultimate goal is to ingest at least 1 gram of protein for every lb of weight. You want twice as many carbs as protein, but ensure its complex. Of course fat is also very important, but you will most likely get enough of it without really placing much thought to it. However, nuts and fish are very good sources of quality fat and should definitely be incorporated into the diet. As you implement the new diet you have to make sure you are lifting and pushing yourself. Rowing and running will hav eto put on hold as doing cardio will only burn the calories you need to build the muscle. As you create new muscle mass your metabolism will naturally go up. You will gain both muscle and fat but much less fat than muscle. Once youve gained however much muscle you want to you have to simply start doing cardio once again. Your new metabolism from the gain in lean body tissue will make it much easier to loose the fat you want to loose and as long as you still eat enough and left your muscle loss should be minimal. The problem i see often is that people put more importance on eating less instead of doing more cardio. making sure you get enough calories and protein and carbs and fat is essential. Doing more cardio should take care of the rest. Only problem with this method is that if you get lazy for too long and stop working out regularly the new metabolism will leave just as soon as it came and fat stores will increase again. So just make sure you eat enough and excercise as much as you should. partaking in gain loss cycles will probably be most efficient way of acheiving muscle gain and fat loss.

My first assumption is that since on my current exercise/diet I'm losing 1 lb/wk, that's a daily deficit of 500 calories.

There is a serious logic flaw in this way of thinking. The assumption, the one that we've been force fed for many years, is as follows:

1 pound of bodyweight = 3,500 calories of food

So the thinking goes on to conclude that in order to lose a pound of bodyweight, one must create a 3,500 calorie dietary deficit. Conversely, a 3,500 calorie surplus will result in a pound of bodyweight gain. Here's the two-part problem with that concept, and it's a whopper of a problem:

How much muscle is contained that pound of bodyweight?
How many calories does it take to build a pound of muscle?

The answer: it depends.

That answer pretty much blows the 3,500 calorie equation right out of the water. If you lose weight and it's all bodyfat, great. If it's largely muscle, you're screwed. Your metabolism will be slower than ever and you won't be able to maintain your new bodyweight. If you gain weight and it's all muscle, great. Your metabolism will be faster than ever. If you gain weight and it's all bodyfat, you're screwed again.

Gee, I thought this thread was dead (I started it 6 months ago and it was dormant for 5.5 months). Since it has been revived, I'll post an update.

My weight back then was about 188#. In the interim I've focused mostly still on rowing/cardio, and stayed very steady at 185-188# throughout, with the BF% dropping maybe another percent or two. At least I firmly established that with the current diet/exercise plan, I was extremely stable. Still though, I probably have 10# of body fat I'd like to lose and maybe 20# (+?) of muscle that I could stand to put on.

My reading has convinced me that it will be very hard to "ride two horses" - lose fat while gaining muscle, and that to do the latter, I'll need to back off the 3 hours a week of rowing. However, I have a race I'm training for on Feb 10, so I won't be able to entirely do that just yet.

The current plan is to keep working on rowing, lots of aerobic work, some strength work, but then after Feb 10, drop the erging to about 1x/wk, and focus on lifting of heavy weights and up the diet accordingly. From what I've read, it may be possible in about 2 months to gain 10# having 8 of it be muscle and 2 of it be fat, and then once I've bulked up a bit switch back to cardio to lose weight again over 2 months but losing 8# fat to 2# muscle. That would bring me to the starting weight, but with 6# more muscle and 6# less fat.

The book New Rules of Lifting lays a lot of this out very nicely, and has weight lifting routines to focus on fat loss, muscle hypertrophy, and strength building, with the idea that you switch modules around as needed.

Tom

tbartman wrote:Thanks so far. I guess what I'm hung up about mentally is that losing fat is catabolic, but growing muscle is anabolic. I know that to lose fat, you need to take in fewer calories than you burn, but I've read that you need to take in additional calories above maintenance needs to produce new muscle fibers. So, is it even possible to do both at the same time, or do I have to take turns (focus on negative calorie balance and anaerobic activity to shed fat one month, then switch to positive calorie balance combined with weight lifting to add muscle size the next month)?

Based on my experience over the past 40 years, you don't need to increase your calories or protein to gain muscle mass if you still have a lot of fat to lose. For example, one time I was about 40 pounds overweight; so I limited my calorie intake to 1600 calories per day, with little or no fat. My body weight dropped from 200 to 160 in 3 months, and my bench press went from 130 to 320. Needless to say, I have done this on several occasions during my life, so I know it works.

All you do is add weight-lifting to your routine, keep your diet the way it is, and you will be burning fat and gaining muscle -- if you find yourself craving food, then eat more fruits, vegetables, whole grains, legumes, nuts, and seeds (you don't need much if any animal protein to gain muscle mass -- but whey protein is non-acidic and may be an option if you limit the animal protein to less than 10% of your calories and drink it immediately after your weight training -- I am assuming intense weight training).

I should add that when I weight-lift (three times a week or six (a split system)), I also row an hour, cycle an hour, and sometimes walk for an hour. If you have the stamina, you will be amazed at how much your body can do. Needless to say, I was not trying to be a powerlifter with the foregoing routine (when I have powerlifted I gained amazing strength with a corresponding amazing amount of weight, and limited my aerobic activities to 20 minutes a day -- this is not your goal, right?).

I am hopelessly out of date and hope those more knowledgeable can correct any misconceptions I have, but here is my two pennyworth:

Protein synthesis is promoted by insulin and retarded by glucagon. Of the protein produced, this includes the muscle proteins. As insulin is produced when you are storing food and glucagon when utilising reserves, this balance would explain the issue.

However, after any aerobic session, glycogen reserves will be depleted as I believe no more than 55% of the energy will come from fat (and probably substantially less for 45 min sessions). There will be some muscle production post exercise as then the body will be storing excess food as glycogen and not fat. If the exercise has been well below maximal, this production should increase muscle as you should not need to replace/repair significant muscle as a result of the exercise.

Pre-February, you may like to shift to shorter intensive exercises to promote strength increase and speed for the race.

Look forward to corrections/comments.

Kind regards

Iain