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How were you planning to use the results of Lactate Testing or VO2 max?
Neither is beneficial when training on the erg. They only loosely correlate with performance, and change quicker than you might think during the training process and not necessarily in the direction you might expect. More than pretty much any other activity, the erg gives you instant and accurate feedback on the work you are performing. You can use that feedback to tailor your training better than vague and unstable proxies like lactate threshold or VO2 max and get better results.
Really? I used blood lactate profile to set my training zones over a six year period. Worked quite well for me.Mike Caviston wrote: ↑February 26th, 2025, 6:24 pmNeither is beneficial when training on the erg. They only loosely correlate with performance, and change quicker than you might think during the training process and not necessarily in the direction you might expect. More than pretty much any other activity, the erg gives you instant and accurate feedback on the work you are performing. You can use that feedback to tailor your training better than vague and unstable proxies like lactate threshold or VO2 max and get better results.
Is that a strong argument? I've never used lactate (or HR) to set my training zones, and it's worked quite well for me. Checkmate!nick rockliff wrote: ↑February 27th, 2025, 9:42 amReally? I used blood lactate profile to set my training zones over a six year period. Worked quite well for me.
So, if you've never used lactate profile or HR, how can you say it's not beneficial when training on the erg?Mike Caviston wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 3:57 amIs that a strong argument? I've never used lactate (or HR) to set my training zones, and it's worked quite well for me. Checkmate!nick rockliff wrote: ↑February 27th, 2025, 9:42 amReally? I used blood lactate profile to set my training zones over a six year period. Worked quite well for me.
You know, I don't post nearly as often as some people but I have been posting here for 25 years, and my history is available. On the erg I have won championships across five age groups from 20s-60s, and held world records in two of them. Not to mention simultaneously achieving success in a number of other endurance sports. In recent weeks I won the US Indoor Rowing championship, made it to the podium in several road races, and just yesterday placed high in a stairclimb race in Minneapolis that involved multiple climbs of a 52-story building despite being significantly older than the other competitors. What additional benefits should I be looking for with lactate- or HR-based training?nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 6:00 amSo, if you've never used lactate profile or HR, how can you say it's not beneficial when training on the erg?
Good for you, well done.Mike Caviston wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 2:26 pmYou know, I don't post nearly as often as some people but I have been posting here for 25 years, and my history is available. On the erg I have won championships across five age groups from 20s-60s, and held world records in two of them. Not to mention simultaneously achieving success in a number of other endurance sports. In recent weeks I won the US Indoor Rowing championship, made it to the podium in several road races, and just yesterday placed high in a stairclimb race in Minneapolis that involved multiple climbs of a 52-story building despite being significantly older than the other competitors. What additional benefits should I be looking for with lactate- or HR-based training?nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 6:00 amSo, if you've never used lactate profile or HR, how can you say it's not beneficial when training on the erg?
I know the research literature on lactate threshold very well (unlike some people who consider themselves experts because they watched a video or did a Google search and read a few abstracts). I was a physiologist working at a major university and performed physiological assessments that included lactate threshold on elite athletes from many endurance sports. My students included swimmers whose coaches had utilized lactate-based training extensively and by communicating with them and their coaches I gained a lot of insight into the pros and cons. As a rowing coach, I had access to athletes who spent time training with the US or Canadian national teams and got their perspective on lactate training. I am very highly qualified to have an opinion on it's benefits or lack thereof.
Most of the literature considers college or elite athletes with tens of hours to spend training each week. It is not clear to me to what extent the results apply to me, who spends 6-10 hours per week running/rowing/cycling.nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 2:53 pm
I know the research literature on lactate threshold very well (unlike some people who consider themselves experts because they watched a video or did a Google search and read a few abstracts). I was a physiologist working at a major university and performed physiological assessments that included lactate threshold on elite athletes from many endurance sports. My students included swimmers whose coaches had utilized lactate-based training extensively and by communicating with them and their coaches I gained a lot of insight into the pros and cons. As a rowing coach, I had access to athletes who spent time training with the US or Canadian national teams and got their perspective on lactate training. I am very highly qualified to have an opinion on it's benefits or lack thereof.
Wrong person quoted.gvcormac wrote: ↑March 4th, 2025, 11:32 amMost of the literature considers college or elite athletes with tens of hours to spend training each week. It is not clear to me to what extent the results apply to me, who spends 6-10 hours per week running/rowing/cycling.nick rockliff wrote: ↑March 2nd, 2025, 2:53 pm
I know the research literature on lactate threshold very well (unlike some people who consider themselves experts because they watched a video or did a Google search and read a few abstracts). I was a physiologist working at a major university and performed physiological assessments that included lactate threshold on elite athletes from many endurance sports. My students included swimmers whose coaches had utilized lactate-based training extensively and by communicating with them and their coaches I gained a lot of insight into the pros and cons. As a rowing coach, I had access to athletes who spent time training with the US or Canadian national teams and got their perspective on lactate training. I am very highly qualified to have an opinion on it's benefits or lack thereof.
Seiler-- Mr. Polarized training -- is a lot less dogmatic about lactate, ventilatory, and heart rate thresholds than many of its devotees. He mentions stress and strain, and he also mentions 80% of heart-rate-reserve as a threshold, while emphasizing that there really isn't a bright line. It seems the main drawback of exceeding threshold is excess strain, resulting in overtraining. This can be tracked with sleep patterns, morning HR and general sense of well-being. [I dabbled with HRV -- yet another new shiny object -- but found it not particularly illuminating.]
Most advocates of "run slow to get faster" advocate much lower trainng paces. I have no controlled study, but I find that if I run slower than about Seiling's threshold, my gait is way off, and I really don't feel like I'm getting a workout. Furthermore, I experience cardiac drift at the same pace and perceived effort. I haven't seen any convincing evidence that you should slow down to counteract cardiac drift.
Of course, this is an Erg board, but I have similar impressions rowing, biking, or ski(ERG)ing.
I'd be happy to see hard evidence on what's best for somebody like me. I'm not sure of the label. Competitive non-athlete? Non-competitive athlete? Active non-athlete?
HM68. Recent PB 10k rowing 41; running 51. Lifetime PB 10k rowing 36; running 40. Marathon 3:40.
Oops. Thanks!