Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
mromero680
500m Poster
Posts: 92
Joined: April 19th, 2020, 5:40 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by mromero680 » March 20th, 2024, 9:00 am

When I was younger I would jump on the rower and go while worrying about what a slow start would do to my overall pace. Lots of low back issues. I learned that for me, a 1000 meter warm-up with a hard 10 after about 800 meters is enough to get loose.
60 5'10"/HWT
500m: 1:36.9/ 2k: 6:59.2 / 5k: 18:53.2 / 30min: 7762 / 10k: 38:52.0 (2020 PBs)

Sakly
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2850
Joined: January 13th, 2022, 10:49 am

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » March 20th, 2024, 9:17 am

Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 8:18 am
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:19 am

And you built your knowledge by asking at least 100s of lions how they felt after the chase?
Stupid discussion. Stupid comparison.
If you don't need a warmup and go 100% from the start, fine if that works for you.
Lions are mammals and so are we. If the argument is made that, 'Yeah but lions have evolved to spring explosively from rest to the chase', I would reply that surely evolution has also thus equipped humans. In our forest dwelling pre-history past humans also needed that capability to escape from sudden danger. That capability is with us still.
Nice, if it works for you. Go on with 100% effort from the start, I'm fine with it πŸ‘πŸ»
I think your arguments have flaws, but I won't discuss them with you, as results won't add any useful to the thread.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

DavidA
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Location: Amberley Village, OH
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by DavidA » March 20th, 2024, 2:18 pm

Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 8:18 am
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:19 am

And you built your knowledge by asking at least 100s of lions how they felt after the chase?
Stupid discussion. Stupid comparison.
If you don't need a warmup and go 100% from the start, fine if that works for you.
Lions are mammals and so are we. If the argument is made that, 'Yeah but lions have evolved to spring explosively from rest to the chase', I would reply that surely evolution has also thus equipped humans. In our forest dwelling pre-history past humans also needed that capability to escape from sudden danger. That capability is with us still.
That may very well be correct, but those humans didn't live anywhere near as long. As we get older we may benefit from some warmup.

David
63 y / 70 kg / 172 cm / 5 kids / 17 grandkids :)
Received my model C erg 18-Dec-1994
my log

Slidewinder
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Posts: 398
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 20th, 2024, 2:53 pm

Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 9:17 am
Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 8:18 am
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:19 am

And you built your knowledge by asking at least 100s of lions how they felt after the chase?
Stupid discussion. Stupid comparison.
If you don't need a warmup and go 100% from the start, fine if that works for you.
Lions are mammals and so are we. If the argument is made that, 'Yeah but lions have evolved to spring explosively from rest to the chase', I would reply that surely evolution has also thus equipped humans. In our forest dwelling pre-history past humans also needed that capability to escape from sudden danger. That capability is with us still.
Nice, if it works for you. Go on with 100% effort from the start, I'm fine with it πŸ‘πŸ»
I think your arguments have flaws, but I won't discuss them with you, as results won't add any useful to the thread.
Or you could have answered honestly and wrote, "That's an interesting idea. I never thought of that before."

Sakly
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2850
Joined: January 13th, 2022, 10:49 am

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » March 20th, 2024, 3:17 pm

Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:53 pm
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 9:17 am
Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 8:18 am


Lions are mammals and so are we. If the argument is made that, 'Yeah but lions have evolved to spring explosively from rest to the chase', I would reply that surely evolution has also thus equipped humans. In our forest dwelling pre-history past humans also needed that capability to escape from sudden danger. That capability is with us still.
Nice, if it works for you. Go on with 100% effort from the start, I'm fine with it πŸ‘πŸ»
I think your arguments have flaws, but I won't discuss them with you, as results won't add any useful to the thread.
Or you could have answered honestly and wrote, "That's an interesting idea. I never thought of that before."
But that wouldn't be the truth.
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

User avatar
SumBigGuyRowing
Paddler
Posts: 42
Joined: July 19th, 2020, 6:13 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by SumBigGuyRowing » March 20th, 2024, 4:04 pm

Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 3:17 pm
Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:53 pm
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 9:17 am


Nice, if it works for you. Go on with 100% effort from the start, I'm fine with it πŸ‘πŸ»
I think your arguments have flaws, but I won't discuss them with you, as results won't add any useful to the thread.
Or you could have answered honestly and wrote, "That's an interesting idea. I never thought of that before."
But that wouldn't be the truth.
Thank you everyone for your input. I found some useful web pages and videos about dynamic stretching. I now do dynamic stretching before my workout.

I think this thread thread is now going in some non-constructive directions. Let's get back to being a helpful community focused on fitness.

Sakly
Half Marathon Poster
Posts: 2850
Joined: January 13th, 2022, 10:49 am

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » March 20th, 2024, 5:21 pm

SumBigGuyRowing wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 4:04 pm
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 3:17 pm
Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 2:53 pm


Or you could have answered honestly and wrote, "That's an interesting idea. I never thought of that before."
But that wouldn't be the truth.
Thank you everyone for your input. I found some useful web pages and videos about dynamic stretching. I now do dynamic stretching before my workout.

I think this thread thread is now going in some non-constructive directions. Let's get back to being a helpful community focused on fitness.
Sadly any thread goes this route, when slidewinder joins.

Hope you get some benefit from your routine and enjoy rowing πŸ‘πŸ»
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Slidewinder
2k Poster
Posts: 398
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 21st, 2024, 8:40 am

Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 5:21 pm
SumBigGuyRowing wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 4:04 pm
Sakly wrote: ↑
March 20th, 2024, 3:17 pm


But that wouldn't be the truth.
Thank you everyone for your input. I found some useful web pages and videos about dynamic stretching. I now do dynamic stretching before my workout.

I think this thread thread is now going in some non-constructive directions. Let's get back to being a helpful community focused on fitness.
Sadly any thread goes this route, when slidewinder joins.

Hope you get some benefit from your routine and enjoy rowing πŸ‘πŸ»
"Sadly any thread goes this route, when slidewinder joins." (your quote)

I introduced to this discussion a possible Darwinian explanation as to why humans (and other mammals) can go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up. You disagree but refuse to provide any reason for your agreement. Your snide remark is maybe an attempt to cover your intellectual embarrassment.

p_b82
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Posts: 522
Joined: August 8th, 2022, 1:24 pm
Location: South Somerset, UK

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by p_b82 » March 21st, 2024, 11:01 am

I don't think you did anything of the sort.... but I'm firmly in the "it's a really stupid comparison" group.

for the OP - I find if I'm doing anything really short, then I need to do a little warm-up only ~5-10mins depending on how things feel and throw some stronger leg drives in after 3/4 mins or so around the normal easier (compared to 500m) efforts.

if I'm doing a 2k, I'll do a slow upto 10mins just to get the body moving.

anything longer and I don't bother warming up at all, and just go right at it.

if it was a really short sprint I'll do a bit of a cool down - but normally I just hop (or flop) off the erg when done - 20k+ I do try to wander round the house a bit though as if I sit down immediately I do cramp up.
Stretches for me are only done when I feel things are tight - had a back muscle injury recently, and was stretching 3/4/5 times a day as I rehabbed it, now back to when I feel I need it.

I've tended to be a hold for 5-10s kinda person, but do multiple repeats of the motion - often pushing a little further with each stretch - rather than long static holds.
M 6'4 born:'82
PB's
'23: 6k=25:23.5, HM=1:36:08.0, 30'=7,077m, 60'=13,702m
'24: 500m=1:37.7, 2k=7:44.80, 5k=20:42.9, 10k=42:13.1, FM=3:18:35.4
Logbook

Slidewinder
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Posts: 398
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 22nd, 2024, 8:33 am

p_b82 wrote: ↑
March 21st, 2024, 11:01 am
I'm firmly in the "it's a really stupid comparison" group.
In my first post I wanted to make my point with a bit of humour ("When lions see the antelope approaching do they do warm-up exercises - maybe some jumping jacks - before the chase.")

Sakly called it a stupid comparison, and you agree. Okay, then let us eliminate the comparison and simply ask, "Would the capability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offer a survival advantage to humans and therefore be part of our evolutionary development? The answer is, of course. Pre-history forest dwelling humans who could thus avoid sudden danger would have a definite survival advantage - and over millennia this would become a natural trait. It is Darwinian.

p_b82
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Posts: 522
Joined: August 8th, 2022, 1:24 pm
Location: South Somerset, UK

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by p_b82 » March 22nd, 2024, 11:04 am

Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 22nd, 2024, 8:33 am
Sakly called it a stupid comparison, and you agree. Okay, then let us eliminate the comparison and simply ask, "Would the capability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offer a survival advantage to humans and therefore be part of our evolutionary development? The answer is, of course. Pre-history forest dwelling humans who could thus avoid sudden danger would have a definite survival advantage - and over millennia this would become a natural trait. It is Darwinian.
But you can't make a sweeping generalisation about all muscle groups being able to perform at their maximum from complete rest, based on ancient evolution. Especially when we're using muscle groups in a way we never evolved to use them - in the case of rowing.

If your argument was true, then no pro athlete would do anything other than just get up off the couch and go straight into a PB/max effort scenario. And we all know that just does not happen - and smarter people than I who study biomechanics for a living have done a hell of a lot more research into why they believe it is required.

We could have avoided this whole trite sideshow if you'd just given your opinion in the manner "I don't perform any warm-up or stretches as I don't believe/feel I need to to get the best out myself - and so far I've not injured myself either"
M 6'4 born:'82
PB's
'23: 6k=25:23.5, HM=1:36:08.0, 30'=7,077m, 60'=13,702m
'24: 500m=1:37.7, 2k=7:44.80, 5k=20:42.9, 10k=42:13.1, FM=3:18:35.4
Logbook

Slidewinder
2k Poster
Posts: 398
Joined: April 6th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 23rd, 2024, 8:25 am

p_b82 wrote: ↑
March 22nd, 2024, 11:04 am
But you can't make a sweeping generalisation about all muscle groups being able to perform at their maximum from complete rest, based on ancient evolution.
Why not? You accept that lions, based on evolution, do not need a warm-up before a chase. Many, many mammals have this ability - maximum performance from complete rest - as a result of evolution (and humans are mammals). Possibly there are a few exceptions - mammals like skunks and porcupines, with their unique defence mechanisms (also evolved). I think it was Joe Weider, an early fitness guru, who dismissed the need for warm-ups. He used the same reasoning.
Of course this advice would not be appropriate for people who are unfit - there would be no couch potatoes among pre-history forest dwelling humans.

RolandG
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Joined: March 17th, 2024, 7:24 am

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by RolandG » March 23rd, 2024, 11:40 am

Slidewinder wrote: ↑
March 23rd, 2024, 8:25 am
p_b82 wrote: ↑
March 22nd, 2024, 11:04 am
But you can't make a sweeping generalisation about all muscle groups being able to perform at their maximum from complete rest, based on ancient evolution.
Why not? You accept that lions, based on evolution, do not need a warm-up before a chase. Many, many mammals have this ability - maximum performance from complete rest - as a result of evolution (and humans are mammals). Possibly there are a few exceptions - mammals like skunks and porcupines, with their unique defence mechanisms (also evolved). I think it was Joe Weider, an early fitness guru, who dismissed the need for warm-ups. He used the same reasoning.
Of course this advice would not be appropriate for people who are unfit - there would be no couch potatoes among pre-history forest dwelling humans.

All lions are mammals. All humans are mammals. Therefore, all lions are humans.

You surely get how ill conceived that is. Throwing all mammals into the same bucket just presents you as someone understanding neither biology nor evolution. You’re surely better than that.

Does your conclusion also work the other way around? Humans are better with warmup, therefore lions should do that, too? And if your advice is inappropriate for unfit humans, what about unfit lions?

Please, let this issue go, so the thread can get back on topic.

Slidewinder
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Joined: April 6th, 2010, 6:52 pm

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » March 24th, 2024, 9:22 am

RolandG wrote: ↑
March 23rd, 2024, 11:40 am
All lions are mammals. All humans are mammals. Therefore, all lions are human.
That is not my syllogism. Here is my syllogism:

Humans are mammals.
The ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offers an obvious survival advantage to mammals.
Therefore that ability offers a survival advantage to humans.

Taking the conclusion, and turning to Darwin, we know that among mammals, natural selection (evolution) favours any trait that offers a survival advantage. Therefore humans have acquired this trait - the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm up - via Darwinian natural selection.

RolandG
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by RolandG » March 24th, 2024, 11:38 am

When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging! But you just can’t help yourself, can you?

Your deeply flawed "understanding" of evolution by natural selection doesn’t help anyone on this thread. Even your premise that "lions don’t warm up" shows that you don’t know enough about lions or warming up. Predatory cats (and other animals) stretch and move a lot more than humans throughout the day, so they are warmed up.

Taking that false premise and then applying it blindly to humans only reveals more ignorance. Whales are mammals. They have the ability to stay under water for quite a long time. This is clearly advantageous to their survival. Therefore, humans have this ability, too, "because Darwin"?

The idea that any allegedly advantageous trait is eventually shared by all mammals is bonkers.

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