Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

General discussions about getting and staying fit that don't relate directly to your indoor rower
Tsnor
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Tsnor » April 15th, 2024, 8:22 am

Sakly wrote:
April 15th, 2024, 1:20 am
Tsnor wrote:
April 14th, 2024, 8:44 pm
Sakly wrote:
March 19th, 2024, 4:14 am
The latest research I know is to use dynamic stretches of short time to prime muscles and joints before workouts, as this increases performance....
I really don't want to necro this thread but really do want to get a pointer to the research Sakly cites. Please don't respond to the thread content.
I don't have a link to a recent study, I only remember some shorts/videos by Squat University (very recommendable channel with lots of information about mobility, stability and training tips) referring to such studies. I can try to search and get a reference to link to.
TY for the offer to do research. No need at all unless you are looking for your own benefit.

Sakly
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Sakly » April 15th, 2024, 8:52 am

Tsnor wrote:
April 15th, 2024, 8:22 am
Sakly wrote:
April 15th, 2024, 1:20 am
Tsnor wrote:
April 14th, 2024, 8:44 pm


I really don't want to necro this thread but really do want to get a pointer to the research Sakly cites. Please don't respond to the thread content.
I don't have a link to a recent study, I only remember some shorts/videos by Squat University (very recommendable channel with lots of information about mobility, stability and training tips) referring to such studies. I can try to search and get a reference to link to.
TY for the offer to do research. No need at all unless you are looking for your own benefit.
Ok, if I stumble across it somewhere, I hope I will remember this thread and post it 😄
Male - '80 - 82kg - 177cm - Start rowErg Jan 2022
1': 355m
4': 1217m
30'r20: 8068m
30': 8,283m
60': 16,222m
100m: 0:16.1
500m: 1:27.1
1k: 3:07.8
2k: 6:37.1
5k: 17:39.6
6k: 21:15.3
10k: 36:01.5
HM: 1:18:40.1
FM: 2:52:32.6
My log

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » April 16th, 2024, 8:30 am

Tsnor wrote:
April 14th, 2024, 8:44 pm
Sakly wrote:
March 19th, 2024, 4:14 am
The latest research I know is to use dynamic stretches of short time to prime muscles and joints before workouts, as this increases performance....
I really don't want to necro this thread but really do want to get a pointer to the research Sakly cites.
'Google Scholar' is a repository of peer reviewed research papers. Enter the appropriate search terms and you will find many papers studying the efficacy of stretching and warm up. In my April 11 reply to P_b82 (above) I quote from some of those papers.

Tsnor
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Tsnor » April 19th, 2024, 8:47 pm

Slidewinder wrote:
April 16th, 2024, 8:30 am
'Google Scholar' is a repository of peer reviewed research papers. Enter the appropriate search terms and you will find many papers studying the efficacy of stretching and warm up. In my April 11 reply to P_b82 (above) I quote from some of those papers.
ty. Google with the search term "study" is my go-to. I didn't know about google scholar, will try it next time I'm looking.

jakabasej7

Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by jakabasej7 » May 7th, 2024, 5:44 am

RolandG wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am
This is in all probability my last post on this issue, as I have better things to do with my time than arguing with Dunning-Kruger afflicted.

Your pointless sarcasm and moving goalposts aside, where are the citations for your claims? Where is the research that comes to the same conclusions?
I understand your decision to disengage from further discussion on this issue.

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » May 7th, 2024, 7:17 am

jakabasej7 wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 5:44 am
RolandG wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am
This is in all probability my last post on this issue, as I have better things to do with my time than arguing with Dunning-Kruger afflicted.

Your pointless sarcasm and moving goalposts aside, where are the citations for your claims? Where is the research that comes to the same conclusions?
I understand your decision to disengage from further discussion on this issue.
I understand RolandG's decision too. On pg.3 of this thread, in my April 11 reply to b82, I quoted from peer reviewed research papers. Current research shows that the benefit of stretching and warm-up is inconclusive. Coaches continue to recommend it because it is probable that it does no harm - but no one knows if it does any good. The research supports my hypothesis that the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offered a survival advantage to humans (and most other mammals) and consequently this trait via evolutionary natural selection became, over aeons, a ubiquitous human trait. RolandG made some angry noises by way of counter-argument. This was to conceal his intellectual embarrassment as he headed for the exit.

RolandG
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by RolandG » May 8th, 2024, 3:04 am

Slidewinder wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 7:17 am
jakabasej7 wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 5:44 am
RolandG wrote:
March 25th, 2024, 11:01 am
This is in all probability my last post on this issue, as I have better things to do with my time than arguing with Dunning-Kruger afflicted.

Your pointless sarcasm and moving goalposts aside, where are the citations for your claims? Where is the research that comes to the same conclusions?
I understand your decision to disengage from further discussion on this issue.
I understand RolandG's decision too. On pg.3 of this thread, in my April 11 reply to b82, I quoted from peer reviewed research papers. Current research shows that the benefit of stretching and warm-up is inconclusive. Coaches continue to recommend it because it is probable that it does no harm - but no one knows if it does any good. The research supports my hypothesis that the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offered a survival advantage to humans (and most other mammals) and consequently this trait via evolutionary natural selection became, over aeons, a ubiquitous human trait. RolandG made some angry noises by way of counter-argument. This was to conceal his intellectual embarrassment as he headed for the exit.
Stretching and warm up are two completely different things. That fact seems to be lost amongst your unintelligent noises.

The research does nothing to support your unfounded ideas.

I could counter your pathetic ad hominems with some choice expletives, but I am smarter than you.

gvcormac
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by gvcormac » May 8th, 2024, 8:10 am

Slidewinder wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 7:17 am

I understand RolandG's decision too. On pg.3 of this thread, in my April 11 reply to b82, I quoted from peer reviewed research papers.
Generally, one provides a citation for a quote. I searched the web to try to find the sources. Your first and last quotes appear nowhere in the search result other than this forum:

"Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up"

The other two lack context, some of which is shown below.

CONCLUSIONS: There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants. However, the weight of evidence is in favour of a decreased risk of injury. -- https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK72912

Conclusions Strong research-based evidence was found for the following: high-load dynamic warm-ups enhance power and strength performance; warm-up swings with a standard weight baseball bat are most effective for enhancing bat speed; short-duration static stretching warm-up has no effect on power outcomes; and passive heating/cooling is a largely ineffective warm-up mode. A clear knowledge gap in upper body warm-up literature is the lack of investigation of injury prevention outcomes.. -- https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/49/14/935

That said, I'm not sure what these quotes -- in context or not -- have to do with evolutionary biology, or rowing, for that matter.

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » May 8th, 2024, 8:14 am

RolandG wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 3:04 am
Slidewinder wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 7:17 am
jakabasej7 wrote:
May 7th, 2024, 5:44 am
I understand your decision to disengage from further discussion on this issue.
I understand RolandG's decision too. On pg.3 of this thread, in my April 11 reply to b82, I quoted from peer reviewed research papers. Current research shows that the benefit of stretching and warm-up is inconclusive. Coaches continue to recommend it because it is probable that it does no harm - but no one knows if it does any good. The research supports my hypothesis that the ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offered a survival advantage to humans (and most other mammals) and consequently this trait via evolutionary natural selection became, over aeons, a ubiquitous human trait. RolandG made some angry noises by way of counter-argument. This was to conceal his intellectual embarrassment as he headed for the exit.
Stretching and warm up are two completely different things. That fact seems to be lost amongst your unintelligent noises.

The research does nothing to support your unfounded ideas.

I could counter your pathetic ad hominems with some choice expletives, but I am smarter than you.
I use Google Scholar. It is a web-site repository of peer reviewed scientific papers. The research findings are contradictory, both for stretching and warm-up. You can look for yourself. Here are three sample quotes: "It is not known whether warm-up is of benefit, of potential harm, or having no effect on individuals' performance.", and, "There is not sufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue stretching before or after exercise to prevent injury among competitive or recreational athletes.", and, "We were unable to draw any conclusions on the role of stretching in enhancing athletic performance."

Our cave man ancestors figured this out long ago. They saw their leader (Org was his name), and many others perish violently in sabre-tooth tiger attacks. Those unfortunate individuals needed to stretch and warm up before they could exert themselves to flee. Soon, the only cave-men remaining to mate with cave-women were those who didn't need to stretch and warm-up. That is how this survival trait was passed down to us.

I agree that you are very, very smart. But may I suggest some humility? Because it seems that cave-men were even smarter.

gvcormac
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by gvcormac » May 8th, 2024, 8:24 am

Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:14 am

I use Google Scholar. It is a web-site repository of peer reviewed scientific papers.
Cite your sources. According to Google Scholar:

Your search - "Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up" - did not match any articles.

Slidewinder
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » May 8th, 2024, 9:40 am

gvcormac wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:24 am
Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:14 am

I use Google Scholar. It is a web-site repository of peer reviewed scientific papers.
Cite your sources. According to Google Scholar:

Your search - "Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up" - did not match any articles.
There are a myriad of published studies on the benefit, or lack thereof, of stretching and warm-up before exercise. We could fling quotes back and forth, but to what end? Anyone with an interest can go to Google Scholar and scan the various publications. Include the word 'review' in your search to pull up papers that have compiled the research results of others over several years. You will plainly see that the results are contradictory and inconclusive.

I found this surprising, as I'm sure do many others. We have all been taught that there is a definite benefit to stretching and warm-ups before exercise, but the research strongly suggests that those teachings are wrong. In this thread I proposed a possible explanation drawn from Darwinian evolution. The ability to go from rest to full exertion without a warm-up offers a survival advantage to almost all mammals. Antelopes do not warm-up before fleeing from a lion. Lions do not warm-up before chasing an antelope. We too are mammals.In the mists of time this ability would have also offered a survival advantage to humans. I thought it was an interesting idea and explanation for the inconclusive research results on the benefits of stretching and warm-up. I didn't expect the anger with which this idea has been greeted -lots of anger and insults, but no one has presented a refutation.

gvcormac
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by gvcormac » May 8th, 2024, 9:43 am

Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 9:40 am
gvcormac wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:24 am
Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:14 am

I use Google Scholar. It is a web-site repository of peer reviewed scientific papers.
Cite your sources. According to Google Scholar:

Your search - "Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up" - did not match any articles.
There are a myriad of published studies
Citations, please. Especially for the articles you purport to quote from.

Slidewinder
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Posts: 398
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Slidewinder » May 9th, 2024, 7:36 am

gvcormac wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 9:43 am
Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 9:40 am
gvcormac wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 8:24 am


Cite your sources. According to Google Scholar:

Your search - "Definite conclusions cannot be drawn as to the role of warm-up" - did not match any articles.
There are a myriad of published studies
Citations, please. Especially for the articles you purport to quote from.
Here are your words from your April 10 posting on this thread, "I was never a fan of pre-exercise stretching and stopped going through the motions about thirty years ago." Surely then you must be interested if the research supports your decision. Here is what you do:

Go to Google Scholar. Type in: Benefit of stretching before exercise, review. This will pull up pages and pages of research papers on the subject. Then you can type in: Benefit of warm-up before exercise, review. This too will pull up pages and pages of research papers on that subject.

Here are two conclusions you will find:

"We conclude that the usage of static stretching as the sole activity during warm-up routine should generally be avoided." (Title: Does pre-exercise static stretching inhibit maximal muscular performance? A meta-analytical review. - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine and Science in Sports, Feb. 8, 2012)

"There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants." (Title: Does warm-up prevent injury in sport? The evidence from randomised control trials. - Journal of Science and Medicine in Sports, June 2006)

Did I cherry pick? Of course I did. Just as you will if you conduct this search. You could cite studies that show a benefit from stretching and warm-up. I could show studies that show no benefit, or even a negative consequence of stretching and warm-up. It would be a pointless exercise, except to establish that the research, as I have already stated, is contradictory and inconclusive. So, that established, I kindly ask you to present your refutation of my evolutionary explanation for these contradictory and inconclusive research results.

gvcormac
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by gvcormac » May 9th, 2024, 8:09 am

Slidewinder wrote:
May 9th, 2024, 7:36 am
gvcormac wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 9:43 am
Slidewinder wrote:
May 8th, 2024, 9:40 am


There are a myriad of published studies
Citations, please. Especially for the articles you purport to quote from.
Here are your words from your April 10 posting on this thread, "I was never a fan of pre-exercise stretching and stopped going through the motions about thirty years ago." Surely then you must be interested if the research supports your decision. Here is what you do:

Go to Google Scholar. Type in: Benefit of stretching before exercise, review. This will pull up pages and pages of research papers on the subject. Then you can type in: Benefit of warm-up before exercise, review. This too will pull up pages and pages of research papers on that subject.

Here are two conclusions you will find:

"We conclude that the usage of static stretching as the sole activity during warm-up routine should generally be avoided." (Title: Does pre-exercise static stretching inhibit maximal muscular performance? A meta-analytical review. - Scandinavian Journal of Medicine and Science in Sports, Feb. 8, 2012)

"There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants." (Title: Does warm-up prevent injury in sport? The evidence from randomised control trials. - Journal of Science and Medicine in Sports, June 2006)

Did I cherry pick? Of course I did. Just as you will if you conduct this search. You could cite studies that show a benefit from stretching and warm-up. I could show studies that show no benefit, or even a negative consequence of stretching and warm-up. It would be a pointless exercise, except to establish that the research, as I have already stated, is contradictory and inconclusive. So, that established, I kindly ask you to present your refutation of my evolutionary explanation for these contradictory and inconclusive research results.
Thank you for the references. Yes, you cherry picked, and you failed to present the full context.

I'm not sure why you accuse me of cherry picking. I'm giving you my impressions, and not claiming otherwise. I am not advocating any particular position. When I was a runner 40-50 years ago (sprinting and distance) I originally did a half-hearted attempt at static stretching which I found annoying. So i was happy to stop doing it when it appeared to me there was no evidence that it was beneficial. On the other hand, I always warm up before sprinting or resistance training. Still no static stretching prior to exercise. The only static stretching I do (which is still somewhat dynamic) is hamstring stretches afterwards.

I'm not even sure what your position is, other than to be a gadfly. If you can run 100m in 12sec (or 20sec or whatever is all-out for you) without warmup and not pull a hamstring, great. If you can throw a baseball as hard as you can without warmup, great. If you can to 20 pull-ups without warmup, great. Many can't.

Tsnor
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Re: Stretching, (Dynamic?) and Warmup

Post by Tsnor » May 9th, 2024, 4:11 pm

Slidewinder wrote:
May 9th, 2024, 7:36 am

"There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants." (Title: Does warm-up prevent injury in sport? The evidence from randomised control trials. - Journal of Science and Medicine in Sports, June 2006)

Did I cherry pick? Of course I did.
congrats, i didn't think even cherry picking you could find a reference that said warm ups were wasted time.

so i looked it up.

The rest of the sentence reads
Conclusions: There is insufficient evidence to endorse or discontinue routine warm-up prior to physical activity to prevent injury among sports participants. However, the weight of evidence is in favour of a decreased risk of injury.

DUDE how could you post that in good conscience ?

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