Concept2 Forum

I've had to stop rowing due to a shoulder bursitis. I'm not 100% sure what caused this, but some Googling indicates that the repetitive action of rowing can cause such problems, often in the knees or shoulders. For me, the condition started around the time I started rowing and has gotten slowly worse over a number of months. Up until recently (when I decided to stop), I've never felt pain while rowing or following rowing sessions. It was always other things, like putting on a jacket or awkward lifts above the head.

The obvious causes of bursitis with rowing are poor technique and lack of rest days. Looking at my brief rowing history, I don't think either of these apply to me. No, my technique may not be 100% perfect, but I've done a lot of work on it and I don't think I'm doing anything that would obviously cause injury:

https://youtu.be/AoKoCIoKDc0

Since this video I've worked on getting the hands away a bit faster to avoid raising the feet, and also initiating the core slightly earlier in the drive. My DF is 125 and most of my long training pieces are done at r21/UT2. I also have never rowed more than 5 days per week and have never done more than 10,000m in a single session.

I've read that whilst rowing is a great way to work out a lot of muscle groups, it can create an imbalance in the shoulder muscles as some of the muscles are developed more than others. This could cause issues unless rowing was supplemented with other load bearing exercises.

I've had a cortisone injection in my shoulder and am patiently waiting for it to kick in, but I want to make sure I'm doing all the right things when I return to a training program.

For those of you who regularly row 4-5 days per week and put in at least 40,000m per week, are there any other exercises you would consider essential to make this sustainable? What are the muscle groups in the shoulders rowing doesn't utilise and how can we exercise them?

Before I had to stop, I was up to week 7 in the BPP and also averaging a PB attempt on various distances about once every 2 weeks. When I return I'm prepared to start off slow and do whatever it takes to avoid injuring myself again. I'll be slow, so it'll be along time before I try for any PBs.

Any suggestions for how I can get back to where I was, avoid shoulder injury and keep rowing for at least the next 10 years (I'm 53)?

When I hear about people doing massive miles each week and hitting marathons etc, I can't help wondering why they don't have these kind of issues.

The video gives the general impression you're not relaxed.

In particular the grip on the handle, which seems to tighten the entire arm-shoulder chain. Lower drag might help. Fingers only with no grip at all is enough.

I'd try to do the work at the catch, with the legs, not at the finish with arms and shoulders.

Feet slightly too high, with the straps over the instep rather than the toes: let your heels rise if they want to.

robhely wrote: ↑

May 24th, 2023, 7:36 pm

For me, the condition started around the time I started rowing and has gotten slowly worse over a number of months. Up until recently (when I decided to stop), I've never felt pain while rowing or following rowing sessions. It was always other things, like putting on a jacket or awkward lifts above the head.

...

My DF is 125 and most of my long training pieces are done at r21/UT2. I also have never rowed more than 5 days per week and have never done more than 10,000m in a single session.

...

For those of you who regularly row 4-5 per week and put in at least 40,000m per week, are there any other exercises you would consider essential to make this sustainable? What are the muscle groups in the shoulders rowing doesn't utilise and how can we exercise them?

...

Before I had to stop, I was up to week 7 in the BPP and also averaging a PB attempt on various distances about once every 2 weeks. When I return I'm prepared to start off slow and do whatever it takes to avoid injuring myself again. I'll be slow, so it'll be along time before I try for any PBs.

...

Any suggestions for how I can get back to where I was, avoid shoulder injury and keep rowing for at least the next 10 years (I'm 53)?

Please look at your cumulative load and how it has grown in the last weeks. Most people think injury can only happen in one instance, but a lot of movement can accumulate to a stress that your muscles are not yet adapted to, potentially leading to this.

I row around 53K a week, usually including a HM. I do this in 5 sessions. But I didn't start there at all. I started with 10K a week in 4 days, with 2.5K a session. And I slowly increased distances over the years (2.5K became 3K, and then 3.5K).

Currently I am struggling to get from DF90 to DF100, and I learned the hard way it should be increased slowly across my trainingsessions. So it takes me 13 weeks to get there, slowly increasing the distance that is rowed at DF100 to the 53K in total.

So, perhaps a slower start is needed for you, and a bit more rest?

robhely wrote: ↑

May 24th, 2023, 7:36 pm

When I hear about people doing massive miles each week and hitting marathons etc, I can't help wondering why they don't have these kind of issues.

Because it took us years to get there, and our bodies were able to adopt slowly to this. And we learned to listen to the early signs of too much overall load to recognize it when we get it wrong (like I did with DF90 to DF100), and then take a step back. Some might call me overcautious, but when my ellbows or knees still feel tired at the next training, I reduce the load/intensity or skip it all together. I'm in it for the long haul, so preventing injury or overtraining (and setting me back months) is something I take seriously.

As James alluded to, you appear to tighten your arm muscles at the catch, I think you may be taking the strain on your arms rather than lats and that would explain why your leg drive is relatively weak (you are trying to match the leg power with your arms). Try and relax you arms at the catch holding the on the part of the fingers between your first 2 knuckles. So long as you don't let your back bend forward, everything else should follow naturally.

The other thing I noticed was that you are rushing the recovery a bit. Nothing wrong with this for higher ratings, but generally you should be going up the slide on the recovery slower than you go down the slide with the drive.

No expert on exercises, but many people have said that press ups work most of the major muscle groups not used significantly in rowing.

Bursitis is a symptom not a condition and can be caused by different things. I had it in a knee caused by an infection, so while the rowing may have been prolonging it, it may not have been the cause. I agree that taking it easy when you restart is a good idea.

Hope this recovers soon.

+1 what James wrote.
Additionally I see early breaking and too low arms at the catch, which is a sign of high load to arms and shoulders early and throughout the whole drive. This could aggravate it even more.

To answer your question: I like to add some gym sessions for strength and overall body work. This includes several exercises for shoulders and chest, but also all other parts of the body. This ensures a good balance of strength overall, no buildup of disbalanced muscles. And it provides a wide range of movements, which is needed for the joints to stay healthy.

Sounds like I've got more work to do on technique, is it normal to take a very long time to get this right? I've tried the 'lighter grip' thing and I find it really difficult to maintain power. Dark Horse is really big on this, but he never really explains how to achieve it. I can't figure out how to relax the arms at the catch, as I drive with my legs something has to take the load. Is the grip really just in the fingers? Should the handle touch the palms at all?

I find it almost impossible to improve technique when I'm trying to focus on too many things at once, what should I start with? Is there any single thing to try that will make a big difference?

Higher arms at the catch isn't something I've tried, is it OK to sweep down low on the return and then bring them up higher just before the catch? I've seen a lot of really good rowers do this.

It does feel like there is a high load to the arms and shoulders right from the catch, I just don't know how to avoid that.

I wonder if there are any good rowing coaches in Melbourne Australia?

Perhaps I have done too much too soon, a lower DF and less distance/sessions per week might be a more sensible starting point.

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 3:27 am

Additionally I see early breaking and too low arms at the catch, which is a sign of high load to arms and shoulders early and throughout the whole drive. This could aggravate it even more.

What is "early breaking"?

Early breaking arms, means they are not straight as long as they should be. In your stroke they are literally not straight at any time.
Try to focus on straight arms at the catch (really contract your triceps to be aware of straight arms) and don't bend them until you have reached the end of your upper body movement, your hip rotation.

When I started I pulled my bicep with too much pulling and not enough pushing - I did a little research and switched my grip to just hooking my fingers to break that association - it felt weird and I lost power initially, but I have since made it up by improving my leg drive.

I've since gone back to closing my thumbs over - but if I feel a twinge in my arms, I loosen my thumbs again which immediately reduces my arm effort.

I also don't think about pulling my hands to my chest, but more about pushing my elbows behind, it stops me tensing the shoulders so I can keep them neutral. By not gripping tightly with my fingers I find it's easier to achieve this motion and take the effort off the arms/shoulders.

I keep my arms the same height the whole way - it helps me personally keep the shoulders relaxed as I'm not "wasting" effort or thought as to where the hands should be, and when my elbows are back, it's all the same fluid motion.
I did swim (front crawl) for a few years and that taught me to really relax the shoulders in the stroke for improved efficiency of motion - and when I swam tense I did develop shoulder issues on the longer/harder pieces.

It might be worth doing some no arm drills - just keep your arms straight, but have leg drive and hip hinge to generate the power.

JaapvanE wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 1:10 am

Because it took us years to get there, and our bodies were able to adopt slowly to this. And we learned to listen to the early signs of too much overall load to recognize it when we get it wrong (like I did with DF90 to DF100), and then take a step back. Some might call me overcautious, but when my ellbows or knees still feel tired at the next training, I reduce the load/intensity or skip it all together. I'm in it for the long haul, so preventing injury or overtraining (and setting me back months) is something I take seriously.

I think you're onto something with this. I guess many people start rowing gradually, perhaps seeing the erg as just another piece of gym equipment and ramping up from there. I saw it as a complete alternative to a lot of other fitness stuff that I was doing, but not enjoying. I got seduced by the idea of one piece of exercise equipment that could workout 86% of the body's muscle groups while also giving massive cardio gains.

Back when I had absolutely no idea (not that I'm much better now), it never occurred to me that the erg could be causing (or aggravating) that niggling shoulder pain I was starting to experience. I went with the good old "if it doesn't hurt while I'm doing it, it must be OK" attitude.

I'm at a bit of a loss with technique; after all these months (and watching countless videos), it seems that my technique is still poor and quite possibly contributing the problem.

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 6:48 am

Early breaking arms, means they are not straight as long as they should be. In your stroke they are literally not straight at any time.
Try to focus on straight arms at the catch (really contract your triceps to be aware of straight arms) and don't bend them until you have reached the end of your upper body movement, your hip rotation.

Thanks, that's something I can work with, so I'll definitely give it a try when I'm able to row again.

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 6:48 am

Try to focus on straight arms at the catch (really contract your triceps to be aware of straight arms) and don't bend them until you have reached the end of your upper body movement, your hip rotation.

If the arms are straight then they don't need to use any effort during the leg drive. Re above, may help to aim for this, but in practice there is always some overlap. The important point is that the arms stay straight until after the hip rotation has started.

The reason many raise their hands at the end is that on the water you need to drop the blade into the water just before the catch. This is not necessary on an erg and not doing this avoids the risk that you don't reach the correct strong position for the drive (as well as increasing the effort required).

At the start of the stroke you should be focussed primarily on an explosive leg drive (ie pushing NOT pulling). Yes getting it right takes time and many of us never get it right. The longer you leave it the harder it is to make changes! That said many are much worse, so don't let the feedback dishearten you.

iain wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 7:05 am

Sakly wrote: ↑

May 25th, 2023, 6:48 am

Try to focus on straight arms at the catch (really contract your triceps to be aware of straight arms) and don't bend them until you have reached the end of your upper body movement, your hip rotation.

If the arms are straight then they don't need to use any effort during the leg drive. Re above, may help to aim for this, but in practice there is always some overlap. The important point is that the arms stay straight until after the hip rotation has started.

Right. This was more meant to be understood as a drill.
Same for the hip hinge and leg press. Drills separate the movements to get the awareness, but during training of hard strokes these movements overlap typically to get a fluent movement.
By feel I would say that arms start to bend roughly in the middle of the hip hinge movement.

Hi Rob,

Watched your video and noticed, like James and others, that your body does not look relaxed. It might be the key to your troubles.
So here are some of my experiences, hopefully of some use to you, after your shoulder has healed.

I’ve always been told that during rowing I shouldn’t use other muscles than strictly neccessary, because it makes you lose energy and you don’t want that. On top of that, there’s the possible injuries.
Since I don’t have a mirror next to my erg, I try to visualise my movements and really pay attention to how the row feels.

So starting at the catch I try to focus on the feeling in my shoulders: do I feel the pull of the handle only in my shoulders or are my elbows taking some of the strain? Are my hands really hooked with fingers only of do the thumbs want to pinch the handle?
Those are the unneccessary muscles trying to join in.
If this happens, I visualise my arm as a rope between the hooked fingers and my shoulder, not capable of movement until my torso has started the backward swing. I put my thumbs on top of the handle. Keeping my back properly upright, with head on top of a long neck and the shoulders low while swinging forward and backward. Elbows don’t move up like wings, but just behind me. It helps the shoulders to stay low. The chain pulls my arms forward again without any haste.
Catch : recovery = 1 : 2, so the movement back takes twice as long. This way I can relax and focus yet again on how my body feels.
For me this really works.
Rowing strapless helps me to maintain the proper form as well. Don’t worry about your heels, as long as you don’t close the gap under the knees. (Without straps it is already hard enough to keep your feet down.)

Good luck and best wishes for getting back on the erg.

Ante wrote: ↑

May 28th, 2023, 7:42 am

Hi Rob,

Watched your video and noticed, like James and others, that your body does not look relaxed. It might be the key to your troubles.
So here are some of my experiences, hopefully of some use to you, after your shoulder has healed.

I’ve always been told that during rowing I shouldn’t use other muscles than strictly neccessary, because it makes you lose energy and you don’t want that. On top of that, there’s the possible injuries.
Since I don’t have a mirror next to my erg, I try to visualise my movements and really pay attention to how the row feels.

So starting at the catch I try to focus on the feeling in my shoulders: do I feel the pull of the handle only in my shoulders or are my elbows taking some of the strain? Are my hands really hooked with fingers only of do the thumbs want to pinch the handle?
Those are the unneccessary muscles trying to join in.
If this happens, I visualise my arm as a rope between the hooked fingers and my shoulder, not capable of movement until my torso has started the backward swing. I put my thumbs on top of the handle. Keeping my back properly upright, with head on top of a long neck and the shoulders low while swinging forward and backward. Elbows don’t move up like wings, but just behind me. It helps the shoulders to stay low. The chain pulls my arms forward again without any haste.
Catch : recovery = 1 : 2, so the movement back takes twice as long. This way I can relax and focus yet again on how my body feels.
For me this really works.
Rowing strapless helps me to maintain the proper form as well. Don’t worry about your heels, as long as you don’t close the gap under the knees. (Without straps it is already hard enough to keep your feet down.)

Good luck and best wishes for getting back on the erg.

Thanks, that's really helpful. I think most people don't realise how much is involved in learning good technique on a C2, and without proper coaching, it's actually really hard to learn the subtleties from watching Youtube videos. I definitely feel like I use the arms too much, which is what makes me tense and also probably what puts excessive stain on the shoulders. I'll try what you suggest when I can row again and it's probably a good idea to start off on a much lower DF while I get the technique right.