Concept2 Forum

Hi,
Has anyone ever experienced "rower's" elbow? I've had It both on right and left elbows at different times over the years (usually as I'm getting into a great groove - read fair amount of mileage and pace). It's on the outside just below the elbow where it gets tender. The annoying thing was, that it got better during the rowing but then got worse afterwards. I was stubborn and kept rowing, thinking that if I ignored the problem it would go away. It got to the point where shaking someone's hand caused pain.
Tried acupuncture and physio but both took a long time to fix the issue. This last time I had to stop erging for about a year and I'm better now for the most part.
Currently, I'm hesitant to go all out and I row maybe 2x/week for about 5-6k and even when I do I'm taking it easy going about 15-20sec/500K slower (around 2:02-2:08) than I used to. But not because of conditioning. Trying to reduce the strain on the arms (torque?).

I've made sure to not engage the arms until the last part of the drive and even then when I use the arms I'm trying to keep the arms as relaxed as possible. Although I think you need to tense your arms a bit to have the hands to move back with your legs. I've also switched my grip from over to underhand (I know you're cringing reading this) every 5 minutes or so just to even it out. Seems to help.

Does anyone have any tips or exercises to prevent a repeat of this, strengthen the forearms or any rowing technique tips? I've looked online and there's not much. I see tennis and golfer's exercises but neither seem to hit the right spot.

Thanks,
Marco

Yes had it towards the end of last season.

I was hitting it with the ice packs after the rows and this seemed to help. Really don't know why it flared up in the first place but it then the problem disappeared as fast as it arrived and have had no issue with it this season.

Problems this season included sore fingers, all of them except the thumbs and some minor ankle niggles. Apart from these nothing serious but the usual constant light fatigue.

Funny thing is if the injuries are not serious you can train through them and the areas of weakness become stronger and then something else starts hurting !

Try ICE and keep the arms straight while your delivering most of the power during the drive. The arms only come to the chest at the very end of the drive. Its probably bent elbows while the legs are still delivering power that causes the problem.

The only clue I can see is this:

you need to tense your arms a bit to have the hands to move back with your legs

which may make things worse, so would be best avoided.

No doubt you've seen this site, or similar, which mirrors your description closely: http://www.wikihow.com/Assess-Forearm-Tendinitis

I got it when doing longer, hard efforts on consecutive days. Now I'm alternating hard/easy days it's reduced. Also was worse doing chinups and barbell bicep curls with straight bars.

Have had it and it's always just there in the background. This year not so much. I don't know if this helped, but I have my last two fingers hanging over the end of the handle now and I think it rotates my shoulders externally to put things more in line - but that's all speculation and coming from someone that barely understands the lingo. I do think that having some exeternal rotation with the shoulders might be worth a try though. I also think that the timing of the leg drive and back swing may take some of the quick load off of the elbow coming out of the catch position.

Carl Watts wrote:Yes had it towards the end of last season.

I was hitting it with the ice packs after the rows and this seemed to help. Really don't know why it flared up in the first place but it then the problem disappeared as fast as it arrived and have had no issue with it this season.

Problems this season included sore fingers, all of them except the thumbs and some minor ankle niggles. Apart from these nothing serious but the usual constant light fatigue.

Funny thing is if the injuries are not serious you can train through them and the areas of weakness become stronger and then something else starts hurting !

Try ICE and keep the arms straight while your delivering most of the power during the drive. The arms only come to the chest at the very end of the drive. Its probably bent elbows while the legs are still delivering power that causes the problem.

Thanks Carl,
I've tried the ice thing and not 100% sure if my body responds to it. It numbs it for sure but I'm not sure if it heals after I remove the ice.

I'm with you in the training through the weak areas and then get the pain somewhere else. When running it's either the ankles, knees or hips that start hurting. Rowing it's the upper body. Hasn't bugged my legs yet though. Maybe I'm not using them enough.

Per your suggestion.... I'll focus on the bent elbow thing and try to make it more of a skeletal than muscular "pull" during the drive. Just like rock climbing... They told me not to wear myself out and just try and use my skeleton for climbing and not try and muscle through. "You'll last no more than a minute or two" they said.

Thanks again,
Marco

jamesg wrote:The only clue I can see is this:

you need to tense your arms a bit to have the hands to move back with your legs

which may make things worse, so would be best avoided.

No doubt you've seen this site, or similar, which mirrors your description closely: http://www.wikihow.com/Assess-Forearm-Tendinitis

Hi James,
The tensing is really hard to stop but I'll try. I had also reduced the drag factor from 118 to 108 and that seemed to help but I really miss my 118-121 setting

I really like the wiki page you provided. I haven't seen this exact one but I like how the information was presented. Will take a few things away from that one.

Thanks,
Marco

Gammmmo wrote:I got it when doing longer, hard efforts on consecutive days. Now I'm alternating hard/easy days it's reduced. Also was worse doing chinups and barbell bicep curls with straight bars.

Hi,
You nailed it. The chin-ups (actually pull ups for me) seemed to really hit the same spot and for me it was dumbbell curls that aggravated it too. I'm going to gradually build up the effort and length of time rowing over the next few months instead of doubling every week

Not young anymore (43) and I guess I'm not healing quite as fast. Who knew. It's almost like the more "experienced" folks at the gym actually knew what they were talking about

Thanks,
Marco

G-dub wrote:Have had it and it's always just there in the background. This year not so much. I don't know if this helped, but I have my last two fingers hanging over the end of the handle now and I think it rotates my shoulders externally to put things more in line - but that's all speculation and coming from someone that barely understands the lingo. I do think that having some exeternal rotation with the shoulders might be worth a try though. I also think that the timing of the leg drive and back swing may take some of the quick load off of the elbow coming out of the catch position.

Hi Glenn,

It's nice (well not nice actually) to hear that I'm not the only one dealing with this. I'm surprised that I haven't found this topic much in the forums (if at all). My technique must be really off compared to others.

It's in the "background" is how it feels right now for me too. Waiting to pop up again if I push it just a bit over the threshold.

The shoulder rotation thing makes sense. My daughter just got injured in swimming - a pinched never in the shoulder where the pain also radiated down to the elbow. The physiotherapist focused on the shoulder and we found out that was the cause of the elbow pain. He focused on the alignment of the shoulder and strengthening exercises for the shoulder. It's seemed to work so I think your speculation is pretty good. With this insight I've been focusing on keeping my shoulders back and I don't reach as far forward as I used to - right to the cage - (so I'm missing out on an extra 2-3(?) seconds / 500m .

Along those same lines, I'll try your suggestion of reducing the shoulder rotation by hanging two fingers off the edge of the handle. I don't use those fingers much anyway. Plus it might widen my grip and I won't get chafing on the inside of my elbows against the outside/tops of my knees.

Regarding the leg drive and backswing... Are you suggesting a slight delay in the backswing or starting the backswing sooner in the leg drive?

Thanks,
Marco

My technique must be really off

If you think that's possible, there's no better remedy than seeing how it's done, in the C2 video, words and all.
The principle is that rowing is done with the legs, because they're strong and have enough range of motion for such hard work.
The pull sequence is legs, swing, arms.

15-20sec/500K slower (around 2:02-2:08) than I used to

Another clue: so 1:50? Very hard (260 W), for routine 5-10k endurance work, unless you're Olympic HW level and size. 1.5-2 W/kg at ratings 18-22 is usually enough to saturate our CV systems.

It is tough to do, for me anyway, but pushing off the catch smooth so the little bit of extra chain doesn't jar the arms. I suppose that means absorbing some of that force in the backswing? Or being a little more controlled with the leg push? Anyway, there is something in that I've seen good rowers come off the catch and there isn't a jar to the arms. But in the mirror, I noticed I had more of it. So have tried to smooth that out, which has timed with elbow pain not being as much.

Ulnar nerve entrapment and surgical release was an old story to me well before I began to have the fixed contracture symptom (inability to straiten the arm) presumably due to damage to biceps and forearm flexor tendons. One symptom/condition appears to set the stage for a second or third. Oddly, I have not had these problems in my dominant right arm.

Glenn is spot on that the early engagement of arm bend can easily be seen as a pronounced jerk in a mirror or video shot from the fan housing pov. IDIng is easy. Delaying arm engagement is the hard part. Get that drag factor down into the range recommended by IR governing bodies. Be judicious about the volume of dead wheel race starts. You WILL take these steps when you are forced to so may as well in anticipation rather than reaction. Ounce of prevention etc. I have trouble with more or less simultaneous leg push and layback. I struggle to establish what it feels like when these are enlisted in sequence.

jamesg wrote:

My technique must be really off

If you think that's possible, there's no better remedy than seeing how it's done, in the C2 video, words and all.
The principle is that rowing is done with the legs, because they're strong and have enough range of motion for such hard work.
The pull sequence is legs, swing, arms.

Should have added the smiley emoji. I know all about the technique and mechanics (ie: 11-2 o'clock, don't let shins go past vertical etc..) and love the videos. One of the first things I did when I discovered this site. It's probably the fine tuning that probably needs to be done. I'm just surprised that more people haven't discussed this injury. Of course I have always seemed to have issues with joints and tendons (hips, knees, ankles, arms).

15-20sec/500K slower (around 2:02-2:08) than I used to

Another clue: so 1:50? Very hard (260 W), for routine 5-10k endurance work, unless you're Olympic HW level and size. 1.5-2 W/kg at ratings 18-22 is usually enough to saturate our CV systems.

Because of all these forums and technique discussions my body is more used to 20 spm than the higher spm's now. Whereas when I was young and uniformed (25 years ago) I would try to go as fast as I could for as long as I could (read 33-35 spm). Not having forums and other information back then that's what I thought you do with these indoor rower thingies at the gym .

Before getting injured and doing high weekly mileage (pete plan) I had worked up to 30r20 and be able to get over 8K with a heart rate around 145 - 150. A smidge high but I didn't really feel like I was over exerting myself. My key feeling for success is that I want to sweat. It seems 140+ is where the sweat starts and for some odd reason at 8-1/2 minutes of activity, be it running, rowing or elliptical so that's my weird benchmark.

In any case, I've taken the advice given and I'll see how it goes. Slow build up, watching the form and technique.

Thanks again,
Marco

G-dub wrote:It is tough to do, for me anyway, but pushing off the catch smooth so the little bit of extra chain doesn't jar the arms. I suppose that means absorbing some of that force in the backswing? Or being a little more controlled with the leg push? Anyway, there is something in that I've seen good rowers come off the catch and there isn't a jar to the arms. But in the mirror, I noticed I had more of it. So have tried to smooth that out, which has timed with elbow pain not being as much.

Don't have a mirror but will try and get one. Tried rowing today and I focused on not jarring the arms as you suggested. Just went by feel trying to leave the arms as loose as possible while engaging the legs and using the backswing leaving the arms out as long as possible. Seemed to work and having my mind focused on that seemed to make the whole session a bit easier. Nice side effect.

jackarabit wrote:Ulnar nerve entrapment and surgical release was an old story to me well before I began to have the fixed contracture symptom (inability to straiten the arm) presumably due to damage to biceps and forearm flexor tendons. One symptom/condition appears to set the stage for a second or third. Oddly, I have not had these problems in my dominant right arm.

Glenn is spot on that the early engagement of arm bend can easily be seen as a pronounced jerk in a mirror or video shot from the fan housing pov. IDIng is easy. Delaying arm engagement is the hard part. Get that drag factor down into the range recommended by IR governing bodies. Be judicious about the volume of dead wheel race starts. You WILL take these steps when you are forced to so may as well in anticipation rather than reaction. Ounce of prevention etc. I have trouble with more or less simultaneous leg push and layback. I struggle to establish what it feels like when these are enlisted in sequence.

Thanks Jackarabit,
Sorry to hear about what you've gone through. Doesn't sound like it get's better for me if I keep ignoring it.
Tried the delay in engagement and my arms felt like a loose elastic band when I think I did it right. Couldn't do it on every stroke but maybe every 2nd or 3rd. Definitely will keep working on that. Not sure about how the simultaneous leg push and layback would work but there is definitely some overlap right now.

Drag factor... Sticking with 105-108 for now, which I think is below the standard drag factor suggested in most of what I've read (I usually see a suggestion of 120-130). When healthy I usually go with 118.